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Post by Kwodd on Jul 16, 2013 23:14:02 GMT
Core: 3 Hiveguard, OA vs AV12 6 shots, 1.833 hits, .9111 G/P, .9111 Hull points removed after 5+ Jink
Had a hard time understanding this and what the numbers after 1.833 hits are representing, g/p obviously glance and penetrate. But I'm not sure how you got to .9111 hull points after jink, and as I said before the guard ignores jink.
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Post by gigasnail on Jul 16, 2013 23:21:33 GMT
couple of units in rapid fire range is going to start melting the wounds off your shellrant pretty quickly. unit of plasma vets dropped near one will drop it even faster. you kill them with focus fire, same way you kill flyrants. it's just easier, generally speaking, to kill the shellrant. hard to hit is hard to beat.
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Post by Kwodd on Jul 17, 2013 0:01:27 GMT
couple of units in rapid fire range is going to start melting the wounds off your shellrant pretty quickly. unit of plasma vets dropped near one will drop it even faster. you kill them with focus fire, same way you kill flyrants. it's just easier, generally speaking, to kill the shellrant. hard to hit is hard to beat. Hrmmmmmm, that sounds more like playstyle problems, you can't drop a pod onto enemy units and without padding you're not using him right. Wandering out in front of 2 units rapid fire range and saying derrrrrrp speaks for itself. The flyrant is hard to hit the first time but fortunately for others a str 3 hit can turn into str9 and when she's on the ground at 3 wounds she melts quicker than anything. I'm not even gonna start about what a helldrakes vector strike does to the flyrant because you know. That is not a shellrant problem. 2+ is leagues above 3+ this edition and you know it, combined with t6 and its tough as nails. If I thought the flyrant sucked and the shellrant was way better then I'd put 2 of em in. I run one of each because I think utility is as great in the game as it is in every other situation you can encounter in life. Giga I think you are more of a 2 swords guy where I'd go for the sword and board. =)
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Post by infornography on Jul 17, 2013 0:09:39 GMT
Flyrant vs AV12 12 shots, 9 hits, 1.5 glances, 1.0 after 5+ Jink 3 Hiveguard, OA vs AV12 6 shots, 1.833 hits, .9111 G/P, .9111 Hull points removed after 5+ Jink So, taking into account Jink, and the fact that the Hive guard can Pen AV12, it seems that Hive Guard + OA is better against against AV12 than the flyrant. There are more variables to consider (Flyrant has better mobility, Flyant has more momement restrictions, HGuard can be out of LoS, opportunity against rear armor, HGuard need OA, etc. Your math is way off. I haven't finished my calculations yet, but you don't get anywhere near 1.833 hits. More like 1.14. You forgot to roll to hit with the 1s again. Here is the breakdown. 6 shots at 1/6 chance to hit = 1 hit of those 6 shots 1/6 will be a 1 and can reroll so 1 reroll 1 shot at 1/6 chance to hit = .14 hits so you get a total of 1.14 hits. I suspect you did the same thing with your G/P but I haven't gotten that far in the calculations yet. I will post when I get this completely worked out.
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Post by infornography on Jul 17, 2013 0:22:48 GMT
3x hive guard with OA 1.14 hits .19 rerolls to pen glance + vs av10 1.11 vs av11 .89 vs av12 .67 pen vs av10 .89 vs av11 .67 vs av12 .44 destroy target vs av10 .14 vs av11 .11 vs av12 .07
Twin linked Devourers with Brainleech worms x2 @bs3 after jink 9 hits glance + vs av10 2.98 vs av11 1.96 vs av12 1.00 pen vs av10 1.96 vs av11 1.00 vs av12 0 destroy target vs av10 .34 vs av11 .18 vs av12 0
So against any AV other than 12, the flyrant is more likely to pen and at every AV tacks on FAR more HPs. And that is with a flyrant that ISN'T using OA vs hive guard that ARE. So the cost of the hive guard is not in fact just the cost of the hive guard but also you have to consider a tyrant with OA has to be within range of them. And as someone earlier had pointed out, they will be much worse at getting back armor on flyers that aren't AV12 all around and will be out of range of flyers more often than a flyrant.
Sorry, but hive guard are way worse at shooting flyers than a tyrant. Still better than almost any other option, but far from great.
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Post by coredump on Jul 17, 2013 1:33:49 GMT
Oh (please do not swear)!!
I was twin-linking the Hive Guard..... Man I must be getting old if my math is even going...
Sorry for the massive goof and the confusion....
(Shouldn't 1 roll at 1/6 to hit be .167, not .14?)
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Post by infornography on Jul 17, 2013 2:22:39 GMT
Yep, you are right. I was hip deep in calculations on calculations and I must have goofed up something somewhere.
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Post by gigasnail on Jul 17, 2013 3:51:41 GMT
couple of units in rapid fire range is going to start melting the wounds off your shellrant pretty quickly. unit of plasma vets dropped near one will drop it even faster. you kill them with focus fire, same way you kill flyrants. it's just easier, generally speaking, to kill the shellrant. hard to hit is hard to beat. Hrmmmmmm, that sounds more like playstyle problems, you can't drop a pod onto enemy units and without padding you're not using him right. Wandering out in front of 2 units rapid fire range and saying derrrrrrp speaks for itself. The flyrant is hard to hit the first time but fortunately for others a str 3 hit can turn into str9 and when she's on the ground at 3 wounds she melts quicker than anything. I'm not even gonna start about what a helldrakes vector strike does to the flyrant because you know. That is not a shellrant problem. 2+ is leagues above 3+ this edition and you know it, combined with t6 and its tough as nails. If I thought the flyrant sucked and the shellrant was way better then I'd put 2 of em in. I run one of each because I think utility is as great in the game as it is in every other situation you can encounter in life. Giga I think you are more of a 2 swords guy where I'd go for the sword and board. =) i'm not sure what you're trying to say with some of this. it's even easier to pod/air drop units where you need them now with the 6" disembark. it's sort of difficult to have a forward supporting unit (and OA shellrant) actually be forward and not expose it to danger in one way or another due to the short/medium threat range of tyranid weapons. i'm not talking about having a derpfest. a pair of flyrants is going to be much more flexible than a shellrant/flyrant, in general play. if all you face is eldar and tau, all day erryday, then your mileage may vary. @core/infornography ok so it's not as interesting as it looked like at first. this is what we get for not doing our own maths. having fought with both, for what it's worth, 1v1, nothing beats sword and board. it is brutal and efficient. i haven't done heater drills in a long time (10 years now) but we do escrima out here on saturdays, though i've been out for awhile with a nagging rotator cuff injury.
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Post by coredump on Jul 17, 2013 4:33:28 GMT
I have had my stints with Polearm and two sword; but since then I have put more effort into sword and board.
Played with escrima in practice a couple of times, but never devoted much time to it.
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Post by Kwodd on Jul 17, 2013 5:11:51 GMT
3x hive guard with OA 1.14 hits .19 rerolls to pen glance + vs av10 1.11 vs av11 .89 vs av12 .67 pen vs av10 .89 vs av11 .67 vs av12 .44 destroy target vs av10 .14 vs av11 .11 vs av12 .07 Twin linked Devourers with Brainleech worms x2 @bs3 after jink 9 hits glance + vs av10 2.98 vs av11 1.96 vs av12 1.00 pen vs av10 1.96 vs av11 1.00 vs av12 0 destroy target vs av10 .34 vs av11 .18 vs av12 0 So against any AV other than 12, the flyrant is more likely to pen and at every AV tacks on FAR more HPs. And that is with a flyrant that ISN'T using OA vs hive guard that ARE. So the cost of the hive guard is not in fact just the cost of the hive guard but also you have to consider a tyrant with OA has to be within range of them. And as someone earlier had pointed out, they will be much worse at getting back armor on flyers that aren't AV12 all around and will be out of range of flyers more often than a flyrant. Sorry, but hive guard are way worse at shooting flyers than a tyrant. Still better than almost any other option, but far from great. Okay 25 points to the cost of the hive guard. I've never made the claim that HG are better than flyrants for AA or anything else. Perhaps it's a pet peeve of mine seeing people using absolutes like "flyrants wreck ANY flyer" or "we have literally NO other option". I'm trying to remind people that flyrants don't wreck ANY flyer, and we do have another option. Hive guard are an excellent shooty and sturdy unit that don't take an hq slot and can solve some tyranid problems. Add them to your flyrants and you will wreck ANY flyer, and you will literally have another option. @giga I don't know what I was getting at either. I prefer a shellrant as my warlord because I'd rather count on a 2+ armor save than flying rules when it comes to giving up 3 victory points. If you want to slay my warlord you're gonna have to bring something special to dig that badger out. I've been playing chess 25 years and to me shellrant warlord makes the perfect king, slow moving and if you lose him then that 3 points you just gave up will quite possibly be the checkmate. My entire army moves with him as the nucleus. Who better to be the queen than the flyrant? I am a massive fan of the flyrant and am not bashing it in any way just reminding people of possible problems they may encounter. To maybe try and help the flyrants kill those flyers so they can get back to flying around killing things with impunity. My shellrant is a personal preference and could even be called the theme of my army and he works very well. The 3 pt bounty is there every game and I hope my opponent diverts full resources to getting my king because then to me it's just another chess game. Between him on the ground shooting flyers, HG standing in his bubble and a flyrant buzzing around I'm set for AA. Good to hear you're a sword and board guy, a good defense is definitely the best offense.
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Post by Kwodd on Jul 17, 2013 5:32:00 GMT
I have had my stints with Polearm and two sword; but since then I have put more effort into sword and board. Played with escrima in practice a couple of times, but never devoted much time to it. Sword and board is great and so is a polearm, in fact those are my 3 midievil zombie weapons of choice. Like a light head on about an 8 ft shaft, at 6'4" it feels like a good length. Mid sized center spike round shield for bashes, a 40" hand and a half sword. I've got a nice sized blade I can maneuver well 1 handed and room to get a damn good swing with 2 if my sheild is disarmed.
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Post by gigasnail on Jul 17, 2013 8:39:36 GMT
i prefer my armies to be totally redundant, with replacement organs waiting in the wings (i.e. maybe not the same unit, but something that does the same thing). i don't care if you kill a flyrant. i have at *least* one more gnawing at the flanks.
shellrant is actually easier to focus fire and kill, 2+ armor save and all, unless the flyrant gets grounded on the first round of shooting, or unless like your entire opposition has skyfire (and is limited by not flying up the middle of the opponent's whole army). this can happen but it's not super likely. nothing will save you when the dice gods bone you except redundancy. and sometimes, they bone you anyway.
also, the things that would reliably smoke a grounded flyrant are also going to smoke a shellrant (aside from ML, which of course the shellrant will weather better. forgive me if there are more new mass-deployable AP3 weapons in the tau and eldar new releases, no one here plays them so i'm not as familiar). taking the nearly requisite tguard, it costs more than a flyrant. still good, but to me, still solidly in the #2 or #3 slot, vying for screen time with a swarmstar.
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Post by dakkathrope on Jul 17, 2013 12:00:54 GMT
I've personally gone a variety of routes to deal with fliers. Fortunately they are not used excessively in my meta. Usually only 1 flier per army at 1500 pts. which is honestly usually ignorable. I tend to frequent the flyrant but typically I use it to put my old adversary bubble where I need it to optimize shooting. I've run the shellrant quite a bit as well. I'm not sure if I prefer either set up, but in 1500 I don't have the points to use both.
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Post by Kwodd on Jul 17, 2013 22:03:59 GMT
@giga, Not sure how you would go about making a case for 3+ being as resilient as a 2+, for anything you get to roll a save against youre stopping 16.67% more than the 3+. Not even getting started with power weapons, vector strikes, Ork rokkits, kill cannon, boom gun and the 14 other codices worth of ap 3 weapons that negate the 3+ all together. You can try and sell that bit of tactica to someone else because I'm not buying it.
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Post by gigasnail on Jul 17, 2013 22:21:44 GMT
a 3+ flier is only hit on 6's, then saves on 3+ armor or 5+ cover. a 2+ shellrant is hit by everything normally. the only time a shellrant is better is when your flyrant is already grounded or a large part of the army has skyfire. you get around these things by limiting what can actually shoot at the flyrant to begin with.
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