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Post by infornography on Jul 16, 2013 2:22:26 GMT
Keep in mind, if the storm raven jinks, your opponent is losing a LOT of firepower for the next round. And if you manage to down it you don't just kill the storm chicken, but probably also all of it's occupants (or at least a good chunk of them if they are terminators). AND those occupants are being deposited somewhere less useful to your opponent.
Plus your opponent will be out his storm raven the rest of the game, meanwhile your two flyrants will be causing untold havoc all over the battlefield.
As I said, they are expensive for what they do, but they do it VERY VERY well.
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Post by Kwodd on Jul 16, 2013 5:24:23 GMT
except when you have literally no other way to deal with that 200 point model in your entire army, and the 600 point solution to a stormchikken is a good general solution to most things anyway? I don't know about literally no other solution, hive guard in old ad range can still give a flyer hell. Not picking on the flyrant but a major reason it performs so well against flyers is the 360 arc hitting rear armor. Stormchickens rear 12 is a pain in the ass for flyrants all there is to it. Yes the 600 pt solution is a good general solution to most things, but it in no way does a flyrant steamroll a stormchicken.
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Post by Kwodd on Jul 16, 2013 5:35:50 GMT
I came 2nd at a tourney today, Tyrant with 2xbrainleech worms just wrecks any flyer ^this is where the flyrant stormchicken thing started, I was stating that the flyrant with 2x doesn't in fact just wreck any flyer and if you had come up against a stormchicken in that tourney you'd have seen that. Then info started in about how 2 flyrants can statistically wreck one if it decides not to jink, and if it does jink it loses fire. Then giga jumped in because he saw I was posting about his girlfriends struggling with the rear. Either way, are they good? Yea! Do they just wreck any flyer? No.
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Post by gigasnail on Jul 16, 2013 5:41:46 GMT
OA turns a 1/6 chance per shot into less than a 1/3 chance per shot of a hit. does it work in a pinch? yes. is it the go-to solution? not even close. we don't have any other AA firepower, at all. the flyrant buries av12 fliers by massed firepower. run a nid army with only HG for AA against a flyer list (a good list, not just some guy that has a few nightscythes) and let me know how it works for you.
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Post by coredump on Jul 16, 2013 13:07:14 GMT
EDIT: MY MATH IS OFF, I TREATED OA AS TWIN-LINKED INSTEAD OF JUST REROLL 1'S. HGuard: 6 shots, 1.167 hits, .5833 G/P, .5833 hull points after 5+ jink.
So should probably ignore most of this post. (thanks for the catch Infornography)
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Flyrant vs AV12 12 shots, 9 hits, 1.5 glances, 1.0 after 5+ Jink
3 Hiveguard, OA vs AV12 6 shots, 1.833 hits, .9111 G/P, .9111 Hull points removed after 5+ Jink
So, taking into account Jink, and the fact that the Hive guard can Pen AV12, it seems that Hive Guard + OA is better against against AV12 than the flyrant.
There are more variables to consider (Flyrant has better mobility, Flyant has more momement restrictions, HGuard can be out of LoS, opportunity against rear armor, HGuard need OA, etc.
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Post by t⊗theark on Jul 16, 2013 13:30:00 GMT
OA turns a 1/6 chance per shot into less than a 1/3 chance per shot of a hit. does it work in a pinch? yes. is it the go-to solution? not even close. we don't have any other AA firepower, at all. the flyrant buries av12 fliers by massed firepower. run a nid army with only HG for AA against a flyer list (a good list, not just some guy that has a few nightscythes) and let me know how it works for you. One thing that you're not taking into consideration is the fact that Tau own the skies from the ground and the crimson hunter owns the skies beyoned even that. The meta is moving away from flying circuses because of these two factors and a really good list may very well just have a few night scythes.
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Post by Kwodd on Jul 16, 2013 18:45:03 GMT
OA turns a 1/6 chance per shot into less than a 1/3 chance per shot of a hit. does it work in a pinch? yes. is it the go-to solution? not even close. we don't have any other AA firepower, at all. the flyrant buries av12 fliers by massed firepower. run a nid army with only HG for AA against a flyer list (a good list, not just some guy that has a few nightscythes) and let me know how it works for you. What works the best for me is clogging up the table, after 1500 Pts the flyrant comes in. If I thought the flyrant sucked I wouldn't own 3 of them, but they do not "just wreck" stormravens.
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Post by Kwodd on Jul 16, 2013 18:47:01 GMT
Flyrant vs AV12 12 shots, 9 hits, 1.5 glances, 1.0 after 5+ Jink 3 Hiveguard, OA vs AV12 6 shots, 1.833 hits, .9111 G/P, .9111 Hull points removed after 5+ Jink So, taking into account Jink, and the fact that the Hive guard can Pen AV12, it seems that Hive Guard + OA is better against against AV12 than the flyrant. There are more variables to consider (Flyrant has better mobility, Flyant has more momement restrictions, HGuard can be out of LoS, opportunity against rear armor, HGuard need OA, etc. How does the 5+ halve your hit statistic?
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Post by Kwodd on Jul 16, 2013 18:49:14 GMT
Those 3 hive guard are more effective against the av 12 for half the points.
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Post by Kwodd on Jul 16, 2013 18:51:01 GMT
Flyrant vs AV12 12 shots, 9 hits, 1.5 glances, 1.0 after 5+ Jink 3 Hiveguard, OA vs AV12 6 shots, 1.833 hits, .9111 G/P, .9111 Hull points removed after 5+ Jink So, taking into account Jink, and the fact that the Hive guard can Pen AV12, it seems that Hive Guard + OA is better against against AV12 than the flyrant. There are more variables to consider (Flyrant has better mobility, Flyant has more momement restrictions, HGuard can be out of LoS, opportunity against rear armor, HGuard need OA, etc. How does the 5+ halve your hit statistic? There is also no jink against hive guard so you took it 1 step past.
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Post by Kwodd on Jul 16, 2013 19:27:01 GMT
OA turns a 1/6 chance per shot into less than a 1/3 chance per shot of a hit. does it work in a pinch? yes. is it the go-to solution? not even close. we don't have any other AA firepower, at all. the flyrant buries av12 fliers by massed firepower. run a nid army with only HG for AA against a flyer list (a good list, not just some guy that has a few nightscythes) and let me know how it works for you. I think the good list you're talking about became a bad last after the tau codex, anyone who brings more than 3 flyers to a tourney nowadays is just begging for an instant loss if they draw a tau opponent or an opponent with tau auxiliaries. The new necron super list has exchanged some of its night scythes for annihilation barges. I constantly fight lists with either 3 hell turkeys, 3 vendettas, 2 stormchickens, 3 dakkajets or 3 scythes. And hive guard next to dakka shellrant combined with board control can handle them 80% of the time. The other 20% I just ignore them and try to wipe my opponents troops off the board by the end of turn 3.
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Post by gigasnail on Jul 16, 2013 20:51:42 GMT
that's a lot more interesting than it looked at first.
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Post by coredump on Jul 16, 2013 22:00:35 GMT
Kwodd, I am not sure what you are referring to. the 5+ Jink did not halv anything...
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Post by gigasnail on Jul 16, 2013 22:02:48 GMT
going back and looking at this and thinking about it this afternoon. the way i'm seeing it, it's just more supportive of running OA dakka flyrants + HG. i never understood the hipster 'HG aren't good in 6th' people; there is always something for S8 volume discount firepower to shoot at.
if your opponent has plentiful skyfire resources (from fliers or ground units with skyfire), he's likely going to have the firepower to wipe the shellrant off the map as well. volume small arms fire alone will do for a shellrant alone; have to add tguard to them and the cost is going to start stacking up fast at 60 points a pop.
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Post by Kwodd on Jul 16, 2013 23:06:27 GMT
going back and looking at this and thinking about it this afternoon. the way i'm seeing it, it's just more supportive of running OA dakka flyrants + HG. i never understood the hipster 'HG aren't good in 6th' people; there is always something for S8 volume discount firepower to shoot at. if your opponent has plentiful skyfire resources (from fliers or ground units with skyfire), he's likely going to have the firepower to wipe the shellrant off the map as well. volume small arms fire alone will do for a shellrant alone; have to add tguard to them and the cost is going to start stacking up fast at 60 points a pop. I agree with this, hive guard with flyrant is a great aa duo. Usually between t6, area terrain, endurance and conservative playing, the shellrant holds up without t guard. If you play him as a vanguard unit you are asking for trouble and usually I depend on my flyrant to keep the heat off him. That and keep him centered in between my tervigons. If he can pick up iron arm that's a whole nother level. Generally I crack a smile when my opponent decides to waste their time firing small arms at my shellrant. Not sure what small arms you are referring to as being a threat, most of them at s4 just bounce off.
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