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Post by shrike on Jul 8, 2013 14:24:37 GMT
relying on "lucky rolls" is not a strategy... Ultimately the problem with genestealers is that they require a considerable amount of luck and planning to make them work now. As has been said many times 'the plan is the first casualty of a battle' or something similar. You have to have a strategy that is very flexible and if you require too many units to work together in a certain way then you are setting yourself up for failure and spending a lot of points to make an overcosted unit marginally effective. I understand your point. I know the lucky roll of Objuraction Mechanicum isn't a reliable strategy as it is due to the element of chance involved but that's not to say that the Genestealer/Broodlord commando unit is not flexible. Just like with any unit in this game, an understanding of probability, and not a reliance on luck is needed. With that said, in the same way we rely on Devilgants to work by "weight of numbers" or "sheer volume of fire", you can also somehow make the chances of getting that "lucky" psychic discipline roll by increasing the number of Genestealer/Broodlord units you have. As it stands, the Genestealer/Broodlord unit IS, as many others have also mentioned, a viable unit that CAN take on a lot of other units, and it does have its weaknesses as well. Other units can support it too to make it more effective. I believe that at 116 points, it's a pretty flexibile and cheap unit. You've got Hypnotic Gaze for challenges (which has been praised a lot as we all know) and Aura of Despair (which I think is the overlooked and underestimated power of the two codex powers) to spam and work with other units like Doom, Deathleaper, Shadow in the Warp as previously mentioned. Then if things look bleak with that strategy and if there're no other answers in your current list that you planned ahead for, you can opt to test your luck and use the other disciplines.
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Post by chuckles on Jul 8, 2013 15:57:52 GMT
I imagine nurglitch will be showing up in a moment...
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Post by gigasnail on Jul 8, 2013 19:25:02 GMT
I had a big thing typed up, but phone ate it. Tyler, if marines are destroying entire units of stealera during overwatch (which what it sounds like you're saying) then you're doing something wrong. They still only hit on 6's. That unit of 10 bolter guys would do 1, maybe 2 wounds firing 20 shots.
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Post by Jabberwocky on Jul 9, 2013 8:08:43 GMT
I've been using stealer heavy armies for all of 6th and most of 5th, for both my stealer cult and my hive fleet.
Some points:
They are no longer competitive enough to build a list solely around. They simply die too fast in todays infantry/anti-infantry heavy meta.
Psychic powers are great and give the unit new roles. Don't try and overdo it though as too many Broodlord commandos leaves you really thin on bodies.
Going to ground/fearless abuse is good, just be careful when opponents know how to counter it (such as killing that 1 synapse creature you planned to move into range, or simply using ignores cover shots/focus fire).
In 6th, support powers and abilities are even more common place. This has raised the bar and made them even more vital for stealers. PE and endurance/TK dome are almost necessary now for fights that in 5th would be a cakewalk.
That said, they are definitely a viable unit, they're just not Tervigons.
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Post by ZergLord on Jul 9, 2013 8:47:01 GMT
In the game oriented around shooting, they are a CC unit without grenades and any shooting capability, they have a 5+ save while they're costed like Marines. They are useless against any opponent with at least a half of brain.
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Post by lordbob on Jul 9, 2013 10:38:54 GMT
Overwatch hurts genestealers, not just because it kills them, but because of the random charge lengths. It will only kill maybe 1, or 2 if they're lucky, however the problem is that killing that 1 or 2 could easily be enough to keep those stealers stranded in the middle of nowhere.
So, before we had the problem of, if I kill my target I'll be out in the open and will get shot to death, now there is also, I might not even make it into combat in the first place. I normally don't care about overwatch, but I play tougher things than stealers, even other similar things like wyches stand better chances with charging in with defensive grenades and pain tokens. Making this, in 5th ed, a squad a nice shock squad, with a potential life expectancy, but at least you're able to get rid of a specific threat on the board, now you can't even charge to let them live long enough to do their job, from both overwatch and not being able to charge after coming in from reserves.
You can always back them up with support, a venomthrope for mobile cover that won't slow them down, a FNP from a broodlord or other psychic, but I still feel it requires a lot of support just to make an expensive squad more expensive and good again. Even giving the broodlord other powers is risky, he has no BS, so if he rolls a power that requires shooting he can't use it, you don't even get to reroll for another power you can use, and all the primaris powers are shooting.
Saying all that, back in 5th Halos played a few games using lots of broodlords and even a squad of 20 stealers, the squad of 20 was good, but they also had a 4+ cover save, but it was mainly good because of weight of bodies, which the gants and gaunts can do better.
Broodlords are awesome though, multiple, minimimum squads of stealers with fully equipped broodlords are nice, I would probably go with Biomancy, though there is still the risk of getting 2 shooting powers, but the other 4 just work so nicely with him. A broodlord with Iron arm is one heck of a assassin. Or even just keep the normal powers, then the broodlord can go into a challenge and potentially make the other character sit there and be unable to attack.
Ymgarl genestealers are still good though, I would say they are doing what the genestealers did in 5th, shock troops that jump out and destroy a specific threat. Would be nice if they had access to toxin sacs.
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Post by 1swarmlord on Jul 9, 2013 22:27:45 GMT
havent played to many regular games lately, mostly apoc games and ymgarls with +1T , come in and assault, with T5 they survive so much better and can do some serious damage especially since you can place them after initial set up so you can really target units precisely. i have 100+ genestealers and i usually use them as ymgarls. I like hormogaunts with ymgarls, hormo take over watch and hits first. but with T5 the ymgarl are usually wounded on 5 and 6 for regular troops. then the next turns you take the extra attack
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Post by chuckles on Jul 10, 2013 9:19:37 GMT
Yealers are awesome, regular stealers are awful except as a broodlord delivery system
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Post by swarmy on Jul 10, 2013 15:20:03 GMT
Has anyone else tried just keeping the broodlord's powers lately? I've been goofing off just changing things up out of boredom and running groups of 9 genestealers with a broodlord with implant attack, scything talons, and toxin from the brood's upgrades. The time's I have gotten that unit into combat, especially with chaos, hypnotic gaze coupled with the instant death potential can ruin many characters outright thanks to the challenge system. I have yet to see rolling off on any of the other psychic disciplines amount to anything major for me. 2 rolls with nearly entire disciplines unusable makes it impossible for me to plan around.
I don't think they are unusable in 6th, but that is entirely to the credit of the broodlord. The going to ground then snapping them out of it with synapse really does let them cover more ground than many people realize.
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Post by coredump on Jul 10, 2013 16:16:13 GMT
I'm still not sold on BLords/stealers in this edition... but if you are taking a Blord, then keeping the codex powers is completely viable. Hypnotic gaze works wonders in a challenge.
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Post by Sensei on Jul 10, 2013 19:51:31 GMT
Hey all, thanks for the feedback. my work schedule over the summer is nuts so I haven't been able to get back on here to reply to any of them.
Overall, I was just trying to think positive and change my thinking about the genestealers. I've been bummed because they are one of my favourite units (stealers and warriors got me hooked on nids) and I want to be able to use them. I fully acknowledge they have many inherent definciencies, the worst in my mind being their point cost. However I think the issue with their points is mainly due to rules changes from 6th that alters their role. That's something that won't be fixed until our next codex (hopefully....).
My main reason for writing this was just to encourage people to look at units in new ways and not get stuck in the mindset of how they want the units to work or how they used to play. I focused on genestealers because they were on my mind, but I think it can be done with a number of other units as well. Just adapt and change the way you use them.
That said, I don't play competitive, just games with my brother and friends. We routinely tweak things and house rule stuff that are (in our minds) stupid rules ecisions made by GW.
Someone also mentioned that I wrote this based on supporting them, and that is partially true. I think support for stealers is much more necessary in 6th than it was in 5th and as the psychic powers go, more benficial. However I think they still can be independent. The amount of cover in 6th allows them to retain some (not all) of the independence they had in 5th. I think they require some support in some situations, but I also think they can provide support; either through the broodlord (I completely forgot to talk about him) or by finishing up an assault and freeing up another unit to shoot/move/assault something else.
I've got my fingers crossed genestealers come back to glory in the next codex, but in the meantime, I'm going to try what I can to use them against my opponenets.
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Post by gigasnail on Jul 11, 2013 1:43:53 GMT
all kinds of things will routinely work in your mother's basement against your casual friends that will not work against a more focused list and savy opponents.
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Post by forteh on Jul 11, 2013 7:41:39 GMT
And some of us never play competitively
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Post by halos on Jul 11, 2013 17:36:01 GMT
Saying all that, back in 5th Halos played a few games using lots of broodlords and even a squad of 20 stealers, the squad of 20 was good, but they also had a 4+ cover save, but it was mainly good because of weight of bodies, which the gants and gaunts can do better. It should probably be noted that I have also been known to suicide jump Genestealers off of the top of a Bastion. I am not the smartest of players. Uhhh, on topic, genestealers in 6th, right, uhh: The way I see it at the moment the cons to taking genestealers far outweighs the pros. Pros - Tougher than gants, Infiltrate, Broodlord is still pretty good, uhhh, decent stats, rending. Cons - Not tougher enough than gants; a 5+ save is still negated by almost all small arms in the game. - Cover nerf hits them harder than gants due to being more expensive. - Loss of assaulting from reserves means they lose a lot of tactical options. - Stabby unit in a shooty units game. - NO GRENADES Genestealers main thing for me in 5th was their flexibility. You could deploy with the rest of the army to counter-charge, outflank them to force enemy deployment, infiltrate for an alpha strike, keep them in standard reserves to flush enemy troops coming across the board to your objective etc. etc. Now all you can do is set them up normally or infiltrate them basically. This means you can't hide off the board for a few turns and are therefore risking getting shot from turn 1 most of the time. Genestealers are not a tough unit, even with cover and FnP they can't take much punishment for the most part. They die a little bit slower than gants but cost much more. In 6th I find 'stealers basically end up used as just another speedbumb, albeit one that your opponent will often try and avoid on account of I6 rending attacks. Sure you can try all manner of fun tricks to get them up the board, the whole GtG/Synapse thing, Psychic powers, jumping them off the parapet of bastion, whatever. But in the end they are just not survivable enough to justify taking. If you want useful 'stealers stick with Ymgarls, who will probably at least achive something before keeling over. If you want a fast, dangerous screen run Gargoyles for half the cost.
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Post by coredump on Jul 11, 2013 20:30:11 GMT
Yup... I was running stealer shock even in 4th edition, and then still in 5th.
With the advent of 6th, I went from 46 stealers to 8 healers.
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