Sexism in videogames!

[Psychichobo]

(link deleted)

Warning: The above video has a mild bit of swearing in.



So, yeah, sexism in video games. It is a symbol of my respect for the Hive that I believe I can create a thread on this without being violently ganked by a mob of angry fanboys, so don't let me down and keep the discussions serious.




My gaming mag's recent issue contained a list of cheats and easter eggs for various games, in which I discovered the MGS4 Beauty Easter Egg. After having all my beliefs about the Metal Gear series' sexist attitude towards women compartmentalised into one handy reference, I just couldn't believe that it was a topic completely avoided.

Then I read/watched several articles on it from some women, read the comments and got seriously concerned. This is the first one that seems to get any actual respect, and I'm kinda wondering if it's because it's from a guy this time.




So, does anyone else share this opinion? I've always felt women were pretty badly represented in videogames, from the moment when I played Metroid: Other M and discovered nothing was sacred, but I am starting to wonder just how the average person feels about all of this.


Would the gender of a central character matter to you? Do you feel that women just seem to be little more than eye candy in games? I did realise once way back that my parties in FF's 8 and 9 were all-male, which made me wonder why all the female characters sucked in comparison. FF7 I used Tifa for her good limit break, but the trends were really beginning to become apparent.

It just confuses me when I know a staggering amount of girl gamers and the market's still this way. Is also racist and homophobic too, but one issue at a time...

[rpricew]

Lara Croft... Best female video game star...

Definitely sexism in games though. It's just the way the world has devolved.

[angelwing]

Apr 14, 2013 23:25:12 GMT Psychichobo said:

Would the gender of a central character matter to you?
Do you feel that women just seem to be little more than eye candy in games?
I did realise once way back that my parties in FF's 8 and 9 were all-male, which made me wonder why all the female characters sucked in comparison. FF7 I used Tifa for her good limit break, but the trends were really beginning to become apparent.

It just confuses me when I know a staggering amount of girl gamers and the market's still this way.
Is also racist and homophobic too, but one issue at a time...

1) not bothered about gender in the slightest.
2) more often than not , yes.
3) FF games tend to make characters combat guys and magic girls. Early in the game magic is important in a mixed party. Later you can simply spam combat characters as they do damage quicker and harder in general. Thus parties tend towards combat guys.
4) the market is still this way as the vast majority of gamers are teenage boys.
5) not sure what you mean by racist or homophobic, in the sense that I've not seen any active abuse within video games of this nature. (online players with microphones excepted of course )

[GestationPool]

Begin *mini-rant*

At the risk of being shouted into next Wednesday because I sound homophobic, I feel like I should say that that the end of this video is much more disturbing than the "mild language" (as Phycichobo said, I hope the hive is above that, but I seem to be having trouble with the "everything must be tolerated except those that seem intolerant" demographic lately) I do fully agree with the message though. I for one, would like to see more games with female roles, specifically as fleshed out characters.
I do find that some games do have very strong female character's including the original (I haven't played the second) StarCraft's Kerrigan, arguably portal's Chell, and most definitely Half Life 2's Alex. Alex specifically has an entire backstory and is a true "person" not just an allied NPC. There is a balance between using female characters simply for sex appeal and excluding them from the game entirely. I feel like the gaming industry does not have a good understanding of this and their products suffer because of it.

Another complication is the fact that sexism is in the spotlight. I think many would argue that Marvel's Spiderwoman is really sexist and her costume is way too tight. It is. But so is Spiderman's. The point is that no one is actively looking for men treated unfairly and thus it seems that only women face the problem. I'll be the first to admit that the world is full of chauvinist male pigs, but that doesn't mean everyone is. I'm a huge Mass Effect fan and I in no way think that playing as a female Shepherd is any less enjoyable as with male. I care way more about the quality of the game, the work put in to make the characters come to life, and an engrossing plot than what gender the protagonist is.

*end mini-rant*

-GP

[yoritomo]

Let me take care of that mild swearing issue for you.

There, I fixed it. Now let's keep it clean, kids are watching this stuff.

[Yuno]

Speaking as a girl, I never really have taken issue with this in video games or any other media...

Do I like seeing females in the lead role? Sure, but only if they have a compelling character arc. I don't like Maka from Souleater because she is a girl. I like her because she is such a strong protagonist and well written character. I feel the same about men. I personally loved the hell out of all the Jak and Daxter games and all the Kingdom Hearts games. The fact that the hero is a male didn't disrupt my enjoyment at all.

Do I sometimes wish to see more females in the lead? Maybe, but if I got this wish then there would also be a lot more rom coms. (I Personally can't stand this particular movie type so....I see it as a well worth it trade off.)

Are some men a bit sexists...sure. Even enough to make it hard to get a female lead? Sure. But by and large that means when a female does get the lead role it makes for a critically excellent character and storyline.

If I were men, I'd be out there waving signs about the fact nobody thinks they are sexy enough to spend most of history objectifying. I mean I'm a totally straight girl, but I'd much rather see female Shepard naked than the male option doing the full monty. (At least then I can wish my belly was that awesome or whatever.)

[Edzilla]

You need to be careful with female characters. More often than not they either really suck because the developers have them their as token women, they're crammed in for shameless sex appeal, or the worst of all alternative.

This is where a female character has a Luke warm back story, constantly displays "girl power" and has little to no flaws.

Take Madison from heavy rain, she had a back story, a weak on at that. In terms of character she was fairly flawless, in that he ever did anything wrong. She was praise for being a brilliant character, an interesting female part. In actual fact she was a Mary Sue, had the worst back story of any character in the game (they were normally good though), and served no purpose other than as an influence and love interest for the main.

That's the worst kind of sexism, where developers create a (please do not swear) female, then demand praise for being so "egalitarian".

[Squire]

Just seems like a simple supply and demand issue to me. Who plays computer games? For everything beyond Facebook and phone games the market is overwhelmingly male. There may be some politically correct liberals out there who would love to play as an ugly, slightly overweight female with a great personality, but realistically most would prefer a hot girl who is cool and kicks arse but may not have a lot of depth as a character. I can be included in that second category.

Game developers exist to make money, so why rock the boat by producing something that their target market don't want in order to appease a demographic that don't play computer games anyway?

[Hellbreaker]

Apr 15, 2013 1:17:48 GMT angelwing said:

4) the market is still this way as the vast majority of gamers are teenage boys.

The average gamer is a middle-aged Caucasian male. It's a common misconception that it's mostly teenagers.

[Bot]

Nah Just a very bad joke.

Apr 15, 2013 0:26:53 GMT rpricew said:

Definitely sexism in games though. It's just the way the world has devolved.

Well, there's definitely sexism in movies and comic books as well. Sexism is not something you can only find in Video games, but I do believe that sexism in video games is a common problem. As a part of the industry myself, it is quite annoying when people start using sexism as an argument for why video games is a bad thing... So I can only hope that the new generation of Video game developers will cut the (please do not swear) and stop putting our medium in a bad light like that. Thankfully, some companies are starting to do something about it. Like with good old Crystal dynamics.

Older versions of Lara croft.


Current version of Lara croft (2013)



At least it is a step in the right direction.

Apr 15, 2013 1:17:48 GMT angelwing said:

Apr 14, 2013 23:25:12 GMT Psychichobo said:

4) the market is still this way as the vast majority of gamers are teenage boys.

As Hellbreaker already pointed out, the average gamer is not teens, but males at the age of 30.

[Psychichobo]

Eh, I wasn't sure if the link would be OK, but at least the thread's not gone downhill.



Now, this is the problem here - everyone is assuming that the market comprises of teenage boys. But as has been said, the majority is actually the middle-aged caucasian.

www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp This link also points out that nearly FIFTY PERCENT of gamers are women. Granted, say what you like about stats and the internet, but I don't have much reason to doubt this - on a personal level most people I know game, girls and guys. Sorry Squire, but there's a demographic there that definitely games.


Regarding protagonist gender - if it doesn't bother people, why does it bother publishers then? For those who saw the Jimquisition link, the story regarding the Remember Me developer encountering serious opposition towards the notion of a female lead worries me. The reasons behind it even more so.

And it is an ingrained problem. Namine, you say that more female leads would lead to more female rom-coms - why is that? Does having a female lead mean the game suddenly has to have her worry about finding a man before she dies alone or something? It shouldn't, but the fact you feel that way is proof that people are indoctrinated essentially into believing that women in fiction only ever think about romance and babies and so on.

Angelwing: Why do FF games always have female healers and male fighters? Why are any male non combat characters always foppish, effeminate and lacking in self-confidence? And why do the female fighters - when they do show up - have no muscles to speak of? This is the sort of thing that bugs me a little. I'm not saying that we should make unlikeable characters for the sake of realism, but there has to be a middle ground.



Regarding racism and homophobia in games (as well as sexism) - there's very few games out there that didn't make a huge deal whenever they featured a protagonist who wasn't straight, white, or male. There was a shoot-em-up (not Turok) that featured a native american main character. He could also use weird spiritual ancestor based powers, because that's what native americans do apparently. Oh, and you can't be Chinese or Japanese unless you're in a game set there or in some form of chinatown fighting triads. And if your character is black? Well, then he'll be all ghetto and DAYUM and the like.

And sadly for the recent Tomb Raider - it did do its job well, but man it had to really push the whole 'take Lara seriously' angle. When something like that ends up effectively being a marketing point, there's something wrong with society.





At the end of the day - my point is this. To anyone who says that it's just marketing - why are we pandering and reinforcing a market of isms? Why are we just going with the flow and letting games teach kids that all foreigners match stereotypes, all gays are outrageous and flamboyant, and women are just there for relationships and babies and stuff?

I know sexism is everywhere, not just videogames... but the videogame community does seem to want to actively deny more than others. As a gamer, I'd like to think that we could be better than that.

[Yuno]

You are make the obviously inaccurate assumption that rom coms are not enjoyed by women. If we start giving women what they want, most marketing would suggest women want to hear about marriage and dating and babies. Not that a hack and slash shoot um up is much better, but at least it doesn't make me want to tear my hair out.

Sexism is often based off of cliches, and while I know everyone hates cliches, that doesn't make them less true. The cliche of the nerdy teenage boy exists because a (please do not swear) ton of teenage boys are nerdy and game. The idea that women would want a movie or game about dating and babies is based off of the fact that well...a lot of women enough to say the average woman...does. (And if you want to argue with that just go see the next sex and the city movie and look for how many guys are in there squealing and crying and clapping there hands. Note: guys sitting there looking like they want to strangle themselves with their shoe laces do not count.)

You state that most women you know and most studies state 50% game? Did this study break them down by what types of games. I would bet at least 5 dollars that they didn't. I would also say if you did break it down, you would find that most of those women are playing one of the following.

-dance games
-workout games
-cute fluffy animal games
-cartoon protagonist games
-games with disney characters
-games rated E for everyone
-Call of Duty (because it impresses their boyfriends or whatever)

I would say that a lesser percentage of those are girls like me playing.

-shooters
-rts
-mmorpg
-rpg
-action/adventure

Maybe if girls want more protagonists of the female variety, they should stop playing Black Eyed Peas Dance Experience for the Wii or Disney Heroes Adventure with Belle. I mean then the marketers would have to seriously consider this thing. (Not that there is anything wrong with dance games, I personally enjoy them. But I also doubt there is much chance for a story arc or the need for a character.)

[Squire]

Apr 15, 2013 18:39:02 GMT Psychichobo said:

www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp This link also points out that nearly FIFTY PERCENT of gamers are women. Granted, say what you like about stats and the internet, but I don't have much reason to doubt this - on a personal level most people I know game, girls and guys. Sorry Squire, but there's a demographic there that definitely games.

I don't think that 47% stat means as much as it might seem. What qualifies someone as a gamer? Playing computer games regularly or occasionally? If it includes Facebook and phone games I don't think it means all that much. I think if we are talking about games with the potential to have detailed characters (as opposed to Farmville) it would be more meaningful to show the statistics of console ownership. I bet the stats of console ownership are nowhere near a 53:47 male to female ratio. Same with ownership of PC games where people own a physical copy of a game as opposed to a flash game that doesn't even require installing.

As far as casual gaming the 47% stat doesn't surprise me too much but I don't think it really paints an accurate picture of the market. I expect the big money is still in console and proper PC games.

Consider the male:female ratio on Xbox live. Girls are a tiny minority on there. I expect money spent on games comes overwhelmingly from men, as well as time invested. A personal example would be my own immediate family. My mum plays Scrabble on Facebook, so is perhaps classed as a gamer, and my sister sometimes plays Facebook games too. I don't believe either has ever spent a penny on computer gaming, but for the 47% stat they may count as gamers. That's completely different to my brother and I who had most consoles available when we were growing up and spent a lot of our youth (and money) on games. I think the male market is still far more lucrative for developers

[Geneva]

Sorry Namine, but that's simply not true.

It's not actually a case of clichés imitating life but of life imitating clichés. Society has a tendency to assign gender roles and that sets expectations for both men and women. Men are 'supposed' to be buff and courageous and women are 'supposed' to be dainty and demure. But the very fact that gender roles change so much and so erratically over time and across different cultures shows that it's clearly not an inherent trait of either sex.

When you predetermine a child's interests based on their gender, feeding a boy a steady diet of action comics and girls baby dolls and Barbies, their personalities adopt the traits presented to them and they take an interest in what they're exposed to. If you reverse the formula you'd quickly find boys taking an interest in dolls and girls in comics and action games.

This is why it's usually in our teenage years that we really find out where our real interests lie because those are the years when we are exposed to most things without as much of a gender bias. Mommy doesn't take little Roxanne to the movies to see Bratz or Tinkerbell anymore and Roxanne, as a result of getting to choose her own films, branches out into other interests. Soon she might become a fan of Horror films or Action movies. Our environments can affect us in numerous ways.

But even with all this new unisex stimuli gender roles and expectations still exist and we feel pressured to meet these expectations. Up until only the last few years a girl might be ostracised for being a nerd or into weight lifting; or a boy for taking interest in fashion or watching shows like My Little Pony. Both these things are now very common which once again shows the ever changing nature of the barriers of gender roles but even these changes aren't fully realised yet.

In the end, this is why sexism in video games and film and other media is such an important issue. Our exposure to things defines our view of the world and how things are or should be. It's damaging to have a derogatory image of women constantly put side by side with an empowering image of men. Having women be the healers, the supporters, the damsels in distress constantly puts them in a passive role or a state of helplessness. Worse yet is when they are sexualised which reduces them to little more than eye candy. It also sends the message that it more important to please a male audience than to give a female character her self respect. Men, on the other hand, are often portrayed as the gender of action. The ones who get into the thick of it and get the job done - the fighters and heroes and the ones who take the cuts and bruises but still keep on fighting without having to break down as a result. It's this polarity that poses the problem. It says that women are supposed to be more fragile than men.

Of course sometimes the opposite can be the case - when the effort to empower the female becomes so transparent it actually becomes patronising and condescending. This can often be just as bad. Case in point:



The secret to a great female protagonist is to not focus too much on the fact that she's female. Yes, it affect her personality but it should never truly define it. When you lump women into three catagories - helpless, sexy and whatever Metroid: Other M was - you limit their characters severely and thus reduce them to cardboard cut out staples. Good female characters are individual in their personalities. They're people. This is why the female Commander Shepard worked so well. It was a dual gender role and thus we got a character who couldn't be defined by her gender and it was great. While it is relatively uncommon to see such characters, it's far from unknown. Case in point:



Jade from Beyond Good & Evil is hands down the best portrayal of a female character I've seen in a video game because she feels like a real person. She's kind but assertive. She's self reliant but is still met with adversity. She can handle herself in a fight and, most notably, she's always fully clothed. We're not constantly being reminded that she's a woman nor does it weaken nor hinder her in any way. She just happens to be one. Just like many other great protagonists 'happen' to be men. It's not their gender that makes them who they are, it's their personality. They can be strong, weak, masculine, effeminate, smart, stupid, etc... It's decided by what works for the character and story - not whatever happens to be their gender. That's what makes a good character.

Contrary to popular belief, the situation is actually improving albeit slowly. Video games are still finding their way as a medium but with so many great examples out there with as much a claim to the moniker of 'artform' as any movie I feel the video game industry is finally starting to mature. The proof of that is in the fact that people are having these discussions and approaching them in a serious light. Developers are conscious of the stereotype and are actively trying to combat it. I believe that once publishers and marketers get over their fear of changing the status quo a bit we'll finally see the medium become something more than just a source of mindless entertainment. I firmly believe that video games will one day be treated with the same artistic merit as books or movies. It's just the matter of making the trek to that point that stands in the way.

[angelwing]

Apr 15, 2013 18:39:02 GMT Psychichobo said:

Now, this is the problem here - everyone is assuming that the market comprises of teenage boys. But as has been said, the majority is actually the middle-aged caucasian.

www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp This link also points out that nearly FIFTY PERCENT of gamers are women. Granted, say what you like about stats and the internet, but I don't have much reason to doubt this - on a personal level most people I know game, girls and guys. Sorry Squire, but there's a demographic there that definitely games.

Angelwing: Why do FF games always have female healers and male fighters? Why are any male non combat characters always foppish, effeminate and lacking in self-confidence? And why do the female fighters - when they do show up - have no muscles to speak of? This is the sort of thing that bugs me a little. I'm not saying that we should make unlikeable characters for the sake of realism, but there has to be a middle ground.

I know sexism is everywhere, not just videogames... but the videogame community does seem to want to actively deny more than others. As a gamer, I'd like to think that we could be better than that.

First paragraph: I still don't buy it. Virtually all the people I hear over the headset within online games are screechy teenagers. Maybe its just a small sample, maybe I'm biased as I'm old enough to be their father, maybe the game store is full of kids at just that time of day I drop by.
Or maybe the teenage gamers of 20 years ago have grown into 'middle agers' and still act the same way (I'm one of them).

Second paragraph: as has been addressed in a post before me, just what sort of gamers are people? Facebook / phone gamers? Arcade players? Console gamers?
I can well believe 50% of gamers are female, but I'd bet my house that women don't make up 50% of console /PC serious gamers that the market in general caters to.

Third paragraph: I reckon that its due to a fusion of the old japanese state of mind (women walk behind the man, men are warriors etc) and the hack and slash barbarian fantasy fiction written by men for men. The heavy japanese influence on non fighter characters creates the stereotype Kawaii and Bishonen persona. I don't disagree with you, its just how the JRPG model is. They have tried to break the mold with FF10 - 2 and FF13, but the stereotypes are still there.

Fourth paragraph: indeed, the video game industry seems slow to change and unsure where to go.