Sexism in videogames!

[Hellbreaker]

Apr 16, 2013 5:30:23 GMT angelwing said:

First paragraph: I still don't buy it. Virtually all the people I hear over the headset within online games are screechy teenagers. Maybe its just a small sample, maybe I'm biased as I'm old enough to be their father, maybe the game store is full of kids at just that time of day I drop by.
Or maybe the teenage gamers of 20 years ago have grown into 'middle agers' and still act the same way (I'm one of them).

That's because the vocal minority often sets the stereotype.

How many people do you know with "nerdy" interests that always wear thick glasses, have malformed teeth and are covered in acne from tip to toe?

[Yuno]

^ Not going to answer that because it would certainly contradict your otherwise excellent point.

[GestationPool]

I think the gender stereotypes in society and how different genders act is a case of the chicken and the egg. The stereotypes exist because of how men and women act, and men and women act that way because of the stereotypes.

-GP

[Geneva]

Kind of. Gender roles do change quite regularly. It wasn't a century ago where pink clothing with lace and frills was considered the height of fashion for boys while plain blue clothing was ideal for girls. Rosy, trimmed clothing was meant to be imposing and fiery while blue clothing was calm and serene. Now it's the opposite.

It's not so much a "chicken - egg - chicken" scenario as it is a "chicken - egg - turkey - egg - ostrich" scenario. Each minor change in societal views lends itself to the newest status quo. The ideal scenario would be to eliminate these social pressures altogether but human nature is what it is. We seek normality by instinct and thus barriers tend to erect themselves. What that normality is, however, varies wildly depending on time and place. The least we can do is try to create an environment of equality within these social norms though.

[angelwing]

Apr 16, 2013 11:45:35 GMT Hellbreaker said:

That's because the vocal minority often sets the stereotype.

How many people do you know with "nerdy" interests that always wear thick glasses, have malformed teeth and are covered in acne from tip to toe?

I think its more likely that as I'm from the first generation of video gamers (Player for over 30 years) virtually all other gamers are younger than me, most considerably so, so I my old school nerdy mind they are all kids!
It will still take all the gamers of the world to line up for me to visually check that the majority are 'middle aged' to convince me otherwise though.

As for bespectacled nerds, I've know rather a lot of them, being one myself. (teeth still slightly wonky, acne thankfully long gone. haha)

[Psychichobo]

The thing we have to remember is that tailoring a game to a male market and creating female characters that are bland soulless sticks of eye candy are not the same thing.

I will freely admit that I completely and stupidly forgot about the mobile phone and facebook gaming market, which would probably account for a significant amount of that 47% of female gamers. But we can't just assume that that consitutes the vast majority of female gamers. I was at the London book fair the other day and a postgradruate colleague of mine was telling me that her BF, his friend, a third friend, and the third friend's girlfriend all get together at hers for gaming. What does she do when they all do that? Play pokemon, unless it's Borderlands 2, because she likes that.

I never even knew she gamed at all, it was surreal.


But regardless of the stats or not, the point here is that videogame female characters are on the whole a bit naff. And I just find that creepy. You don't have to be a woman to see that. And though I'm a bloke, I don't think games are only catching my eye when there's some dumbass blonde on screen gyrating badly. It's patronising and makes me wonder if kids grow up thinking that's all that women are there for.


Hellbreaker: I actually do know a few Nerds who fit the stereotype, as well as a few that don't. The stereotype does always persevere, regardless of whether it's in the majority or minority. We all know that one guy at GW who doesn't wash and/or is dangerously obese...

[arachnodeath]

Theres definitely more awesome men in video games than awesome women, but then again I'm a big rpg fan where you create your own character pretty much from scratch. And building a bad female instead of a 'real bad female' that can kill most enemies in one spell/strike can only be blamed on the player. In terms of specific stories where you have preset skills, weapons and such, it is a shame that I'll usually pick a male character because he either looks more badass or is actually superior, but hey I'm not all that hellbent on portraying myself as my actual gender. I have been known to pretend I'm a man when online gaming just to avoid the coddling of white knights.

I think we will be seeing more and more leading ladies as the years go on, because more women are getting into the hobby. We must be patient, fellow girl gamers, for the market to catch up to us.

On the note of how sexy they are, it doesn't bother me one bit. Most of the men, as has been noted, are pretty sexy too, whether they're wearing tight clothing or not. Who doesn't want a hero with a little sex appeal? If I wanted to play female characters that were 'real' I'd play sims, where they can't magic missile or chainsaw their neighbors. As long as a character's weapons profile or potential specialty is in line with my own preferences or skills, I don't care what they or their private parts look like.

And frankly, I think any female that whines about it is comparable to the vegetarian that whines about going to burger king and them being out of salad. A flaming douchezilla. The industry is trying, at least princess peach isn't our only claim to fame anymore. Ugh.. that airhead... whole nother story.

[Yuno]

Yeah I would agree that the men also seem to be fairly sexy. I mean if you look at the protagonists of all the major game series of the year, there isn't one man that isn't smoking hot. I mean maybe I don't think it every second I'm playing the game, but I would guess subconsciously my brain is doing this d ^_^ b and yelling OHHHHH YEAH!

[arachnodeath]

Marcus Fenix for me haha. And Kratos, and any extremely evil looking humanoid with a rep.

[Xantige]

Half my family comes from a 3rd world country where the woman's place is to be cooking in the kitchen with her daughters for her husband and her many sons to come home from work. Thankfully, my dad (who descended from this) didn't grow up to be totally like that, but he still expects my mother to have food warm and cooked whenever he comes home, and he acts like he's the head of the house despite my mom doing most of the work. My brother has even picked up my dad's sense of entitlement which ends up in a lot of male PMS tantrums in my house because something didn't go their way. Boo hoo. For my part? I was was often babysat by this side of the family, so I was often told I couldn't eat this fatty thing or that. I was often told I was getting fat, or I was ugly... when I was 5. I was kept from doing things my brother could do. I had to stay home and be quiet and submissive. That had a huge impact on my life, even if it was just when I was being babysat. So, sexism is something of a tender subject that I can flare up about. Especially now that a good chunk of my friends are transgender/gender queer, which is an issue about breaking down the current gender binary of man and woman.

Most of what I feel has already been expressed. I feel that sexism is way larger than just video games. Look at comics, books, movies, tv shows... jeeze look at art. Look at advertisements! It's one giant world of sexism and gender roles. "Women need to be like this, men like that." Whether anyone buys it or not, it's out there.

Honestly, I hate seeing sexualized women -- in any sense. I hate the token trophy girl that's the carrot on a stick dangling in front of buff-super-hero-dude #10029's face, leading him to the end game. I hate the anti-feminine girl who's a stone faced woman who needs no man. I hate the hurt-by-a-man girls that need a real man. I hate the amazon-man-haters that are paraded as feminism. I hate the strong girls that still get kidnapped and need a man. I also hate how sexually girls are posed in... ANYTHING! Look at Skyrim, look at how the female PC walks and runs... how dainty with her elbows in. Try playing a Khajiit or Argonian with that run/walk cycle, your tail flies side to side with your well shaped rear so much it's commical. It's so bad that the game even gave some of the NPC women the men's stance and walk/run animation. And who decided that after Morrowind, 90% of clothing should magically transform into a dress on a female? Or into pants for a guy? You know what, in Morrowind, men wore skirts. If you're going to not even touch gender or gay issues, why take out something like that?

Oh... and I also hate when female armor/weapons is a bikini version of the big awesome male version. Thankfully Skyrim isn't TOO bad for that, although I remember the Oblivion Iron armor making me facepalm.

But now I'm just ranting.

In terms of video games... well what are video games? They're a form of escapist fantasy entertainment. It's from the same world as knights fighting dragons, pirates fighting ninjas, and cowboys versus... er... native americans. It's a world where Bela Lagosi as Dracula could have a rap battle with Lon Chaney as Wolfman if you wanted. And all of those are stereotypes, most of which were never real. But after a day of complex real world issues, a lot of people don't want to face similarly complex issues in video games. Lets face it, after a stressful day, not many people want to deal with the complex issue of gender or gay rights. Heck, think about the average fantasy game. Even as a good guy, you go around with equipment you either stole from a dead guy, or bought with funds you got from killing people. You raid the tombs of people's loved ones, and you sell off loot from ancient uncovered ruins, instead of donating it to some sort of museum. And it's worse if you're a bad guy.

I'm in no way saying sexuallizing women in video games is a good thing, but I can see why it exists. Slaying dragons in Skyrim is awesome, but no one really stops to wonder who will clean up the bones, or how long it'd take to rebuild the homes that would surely set fire. It's not even like there's dragons attacking and wiping out cities while you barter with some merchant either. It's a an idealized fantasy world, that's why. And society has idealized ways of how men and women should be. And sadly, often what defines a women (at least in bad writing) is only what men lack... breasts, pregnancy, PMS, wearing bikinis, makeup, etc. So we end up seeing a lot of that.

Honestly, I think trying too hard is part of the problem too. People are people. Dividing us up between two genders all the freaking time just leads to horrible stereotypes. I hope I get to see the day when a character's CHARACTER is what matters, over their gender.

Anyways, in conclusion, I think there is sexism in video games. I think it's in a lot of places though. Growing up, I never had any rolemodels because all the girls were either tokens, or "strong yet feminine" or some other tosh. The world needs more awesome characters that just happen to be female. But the world also needs more realistic gay and lesbian rolemodels, as well as more gender queer ones. Lots of games have like... 10 sliders to change your face, imagine if picking your gender was the same way?

And also for the record, I think gender is a far more complex issues that just "stereotypes did/didn't come first" we're talking about something that has been an issue/thing since the dawn of society.

[Yuno]

Not gonna lie, the whole gay/gender confused role model thing just gets my hackles up. Gay/Les/Whatever people get WAAAAAY too much identity out of being gay/les/whatever.

I'm straight and it offers nothing to my identity at all except perhaps defines what I'm drooling at when I sit at the food center. (You guessed it, it was the Alfredo Spaghetti.) But I don't sit around needing a straight person to be a good role model for me or a strong person.

And I know, I know that's just because I'm the dominant sexuality so I don't need to look for someone to look up to it's all around me. But what in the world does homosexuality bring to the table that actually adds to being a better person that should be looked up to?

-Thriving in Adversity? I hate having to dignify this one. Every body is bullied. Everybody is told "no you can't" or "this is wrong with you." If a person wasn't gay it would be their zits or their weight or how they dress or what band they like or something. Being gay just makes you an easy mark because you're clearly going to be super-uptight about getting picked on for your sexuality. (Note, this is not true of all gay people, the coolest gay person I ever met was just "yeah I'm gay. Yeah I like the dick too. He did not even once say don't judge me. Sidebar, when you say don't judge me it seems like an invitation to judge...)

- Changing the social status quo? Oh please, you aren't African American, American Indian, Jewish. You aren't so oppressed that we say you aren't human or separate you in school. We don't put you in chains or destroy your culture by taking your children away to be Americanized. Also note, you have also not changed the social norm you've just bullied a lot of movie stars, churchmen, and protested various bills. The 1960's Civil Rights Movement changed the world. They set a pretty good standard that we all can look up to.

- Standing up for what you believe in? Well since your gay you obviously can't admire Gandhi, Rosa Parks, Martin Luther, or Jesus. I guess that means we should start holding up someone else who hasn't actually done that much just so the Gay Community doesn't feel creatively challenged to write the third grade's "This Person is My Greatest Hero Because..." paper.

I have no problem with having a gay protagonist for a video game. But if it is done just to give the character a little identity or to have a "ground breaking" character for the queer kids to write papers about and sing praises at then I'm pretty sure we should feel utterly pathetic. (Since that would basically be agreeing that homosexuality is a break from the norm and should be considered special compared to the straight alternative.)

[runefox]

Hey, so I've been lurking on these forums for a little while now - Xantige links me here from time to time when she's got some models to show off - but I figured I should finally register and throw in my two cents on this topic, since it seems to be a rather sensitive one and one that I've been keeping an eye on as of late.

At least from my point of view, yes, sexism exists in video games. There's no real way around it, especially with so many alpha male protagonists running around. Many of the females we do see on-screen are regrettably not much more than eye candy, which is a huge disappointment. Recent efforts, however (Tomb Raider is a big one) seem to be moving in the right direction. While Lara Croft's first canonical outing portrayed her initially as a girl who needed her hand held, that was all a ruse, turning her instead into the reluctant heroine who had strength far beyond what she knew was possible. I thoroughly enjoyed the game, and unlike how the devs originally said that I'd want to "protect" her, I put myself in her shoes. When the game started, I felt isolated and vulnerable, the way she did; By the end of it, I felt invincible, the way she did. The journey along the way felt to me as much an exploration of my own abilities as they were hers, and I really can't praise the game enough for handling it so well.

That being said, it seems increasingly difficult to move away from sexism, because what is it, exactly? Is it sexist to have a female protagonist wear a dress or other feminine clothing? Is it equally sexist for her to be wearing male clothes? Is it sexist for her to be confident (Mass Effect)? Is it sexist for her to be afraid, to show emotion (Tomb Raider)? Is it even more sexist for her not to, to seem aloof and thereby merely appear to be female by appearance alone (Portal)? Does elevating a female protagonist to being strong and capable make her a Mary Sue (Tomb Raider)? Does making her weak and vulnerable (Clocktower) do the same?

Perhaps that's why I identified so well to Mass Effect's female version of Shepard. The game plays out more or less exactly the same regardless as to the player's gender. The characters react the same, the uniforms are the same, and really, isn't that what gender equality is about?

I do agree with Xantige on the concept of LGBT issues in games, though. It's rather under-represented, and quite frankly, it has everything to do with our society, much like objectifying women is (have you turned on a TV or opened a magazine lately?) Again, this is one area where Mass Effect particularly shines, and I hope more open-ended games allow this kind of freedom for the player. If nothing else, building your own role model is an extremely gratifying experience.

With that in mind, I hope you can understand why I need to address this post...

Apr 23, 2013 23:54:23 GMT Yuno said:

Not gonna lie, the whole gay/gender confused role model thing just gets my hackles up. Gay/Les/Whatever people get WAAAAAY too much identity out of being gay/les/whatever.

How do you define identity? Isn't it the unique things that make you 'you'? Things that stand out from the norm. While I don't exactly like it, society is still very polarized about LGBT issues, particularly in the United States, where most of the consumption of video games and related material occurs. In that case, doesn't being LGBT factor as a part of your identity? It wouldn't for straight folks, just like it doesn't for (most) white folks (anymore).

But I don't sit around needing a straight person to be a good role model for me or a strong person.

I know that you mention this a little further on, but the thing is, straight people DO have good role models all the time. Action heroes hook up with the heroine / damsel in distress at the end as reward for their deeds, Mario gets Princess Peach at the end of the 8th world and gets a kiss, and every old wholesome TV family featured straight parents to my knowledge (at least, all the popular ones did). There are straight role models all around us, we just don't identify them because, again, straight is "normal". If Mario got a kiss from Toad at the end of world 8, there would be quite lot fewer Mario games today.

And I know, I know that's just because I'm the dominant sexuality so I don't need to look for someone to look up to it's all around me. But what in the world does homosexuality bring to the table that actually adds to being a better person that should be looked up to?

What does heterosexuality? Sexuality in general doesn't really provide people with any particular set of morals. However, people always seem to need someone to look up to, someone who they can identify with and follow after. The idea here is that with a gay role model, LGBT folks have someone to look up to. As it stands, there aren't very many of those around, and that happens to have everything to do with LGBT in general being relatively rare by comparison to heterosexuality. Still, if you were, let's say, transgendered, and you didn't know what to do with your life. It would be sort of like waking up one day and realizing that your arms are where your legs should be and vice versa. You'd be profoundly confused, you'd be worried that you're the only one who is this way, and quite frankly, many LGBT people do feel that way. There's no prominent people out there to look up to to say "yeah, I'm not alone", and you're not even sure if anyone would accept it. When someone big does come out or get outed, it's almost always a big deal with a lot of negative publicity.

Thriving in Adversity? I hate having to dignify this one. Every body is bullied. Everybody is told "no you can't" or "this is wrong with you." If a person wasn't gay it would be their zits or their weight or how they dress or what band they like or something. Being gay just makes you an easy mark because you're clearly going to be super-uptight about getting picked on for your sexuality.

Everybody is bullied. But comparing someone's innermost feelings with zits is like comparing a stone to an atom bomb. One hurts, the other devastates. You don't feel like nobody will ever accept you because you have a zit or because you failed an algebra test. The incidence of suicide in LGBT youths tends to agree.

Changing the social status quo? Oh please, you aren't African American, American Indian, Jewish. You aren't so oppressed that we say you aren't human or separate you in school. We don't put you in chains or destroy your culture by taking your children away to be Americanized. Also note, you have also not changed the social norm you've just bullied a lot of movie stars, churchmen, and protested various bills. The 1960's Civil Rights Movement changed the world. They set a pretty good standard that we all can look up to.

I'm not sure you know what you're talking about. In many countries around the world, simply being gay is a crime, and you can and will be hauled off in chains for it, if not killed. In many others, including parts of the United States and Europe, gay couples adopting children is illegal, and the debate rages on in America whether or not gay couples should be allowed to have children at all. Unfortunately, since this is something that is handled at the state level, it's difficult to find much more detailed information or more high-profile debates.

Simply because people aren't enslaving LGBT individuals doesn't mean that their status isn't still sub-human in many parts of the world, and that's cause for concern. The movements in the 60's set the stage, but really, gay marriage is still illegal in much of the United States and in many other parts of the world in the same way that inter-racial marriage was in the 60's. To say that those movements completely removed society's blocks on equality is to say that women's suffrage ended with the right to vote. Women today are still suffering from sexism, objectification, and the 'glass ceiling' just like they always have. It's still a battle, and while I can't say I agree with hyperfeminists, I completely understand that societal change doesn't happen overnight.

Standing up for what you believe in? Well since your gay you obviously can't admire Gandhi, Rosa Parks, Martin Luther, or Jesus. I guess that means we should start holding up someone else who hasn't actually done that much just so the Gay Community doesn't feel creatively challenged to write the third grade's "This Person is My Greatest Hero Because..." paper.

Jews can admire Jesus, even though they don't believe he was the Messiah. Christians can admire Gandhi, even though he was Hindu. Why can't LGBT admire the same people? For that matter, what is meant by "standing up for what you believe in"? In this case, wouldn't that be personal freedom? Being yourself without having fear of society judging you solely based on a single aspect of who you are? The ability to fall in love with who you want, be with them, and be happy with them? It's less about believing in being gay than it is about civil rights. The fact alone that LGBT issues are issues at all forces us to question why exactly societies limit such freedoms in the first place. What other crusty traditions do we as a society have that are holding us back? Why is it such a battle to gain those freedoms?

I have no problem with having a gay protagonist for a video game. But if it is done just to give the character a little identity or to have a "ground breaking" character for the queer kids to write papers about and sing praises at then I'm pretty sure we should feel utterly pathetic. (Since that would basically be agreeing that homosexuality is a break from the norm and should be considered special compared to the straight alternative.)

While I take issue with the "queer kids" statement, this I can get behind. A character who is gay for the sake of being gay would not be a character that I would want as a role model, just like a character being a certain race for the sake of being a certain race is similarly shallow. However, if a story is built around it, if it's not simply a bolted on afterthought, I think we can agree that it would make for a fresh, if unfortunately rather polarizing plot. Identifying with the character, so long as you aren't homophobic, shouldn't be any more difficult than identifying with Louis or Zoey from Left 4 Dead, being black and female respectively, or Lara Croft of Tomb Raider, or Jade from Beyond Good & Evil (who is both black and female), or Rochelle from Left 4 Dead 2 (also both). Race and gender are still issues for some, of course, just as LGBT in general are for many. The fact that you don't care so much, though, shows that you don't really perceive it as an issue, which is honestly far better than the alternative. If more people saw it that way, perhaps it wouldn't be such an issue to effect change in society.

Anyway, that's way more than enough for my first post, I think. I'm happy that the trend seems to be moving in the right direction as far as sexism, racism and LGBT issues go. Even if we aren't exactly there yet, the fact that developers are paying attention and attempting to respect their characters and the people who play their games means we hopefully don't have far to go. Well, at least for some developers... I'm not holding my breath for Rockstar making GTA: Women's Rights anytime soon. ;D

[Yuno]

You may have failed to see some of the really obvious sarcasm in a lot of my statements. Particularly the one involving the statement that gays can't look up to Rosa Parks. Of course they can. Of course they can admire Jesus. That was my point. Why should we invent new people for them to look up to that haven't (Starved for their rights, been crucified, or beaten for sitting in a bus)? It's like saying because your gay you need your own special brand of hero. No you don't! You don't! We have plenty of heroes without just adding them on to be inclusive.

I see it as an issue that anyone actually gives a (please do not swear). Someone should be worth looking up to based upon their actions. Not which gender they think looks good scantily clad. Otherwise, we are just purely pathetic as a race.

I have to run to class, but there is a lot more there to disagree with.

[runefox]

While I agree in principle that people should be judged and looked up to based on their actions, not what they are, it's a similar situation where minorities seek representation in media. "Token" black characters were common for a while, and this entire topic of sexism in video games should underline what I'm saying. While tacking on minorities solely for the sake of representation is silly, I doubt you'd be saying the same thing about female characters and role models if there weren't any. It's hard to grasp today, but once upon a time, women taking the spotlight was unthinkable.

Honestly, it's extremely naive to think that LGBT people aren't persecuted and that they receive all the same rights as straight people. To say that their struggles aren't any different than bullying is an insult, and I was hoping that your response above was simply misinformed. Instead, it seems like you're intent on not actually looking at the issue at all.

"Gays are being killed in some countries!" - "Nobody gives a (please do not swear), it's not like they're Jews or blacks getting killed for their race and religion"

"Gays can't marry in most of the world!" - "Nobody gives a (please do not swear), the 60's fixed everything and there isn't a problem here"

"Gays can't adopt in most of the world, and children are being taken away from those that have!" - "Nobody gives a (please do not swear), it's not like they're being sold into slavery"

Does that seem like a reasonable response?

[Xantige]

Look, I don't have as much time as I'd like to touch on this issue Namine, but this may be the only chance I get today, so I apologize if this all seems rushed. I hope you get the gist of what I'm about to say.

1) Gay as an identity: NO DUH! Being attracted to certain kinds of people kind of shapes your personality a bit. But that's not gay exclusive. Let's even skip over the whole fact that who you like sort of affects your personality... the reason "gay" is seen as a personality trait is because A) We're trying to get some freaking rights here, so we aren't killed in some countries, or made unequal citizens in places supposedly as advanced as the USA (which is backwards when it comes to gay rights). B) When something is normal, anything outside of it tends to become a novelty that gets tacked on to your personality. Look at video games. There are characters whose personality is just "the only girl in the group" or "the black guy in the group".

2) Namine, you're coming off as a very well off american female. I don't know whether that's true or not, but you sure as heck make it sound like you've never truly been a minority in today's day and age. Imagine for a moment, if you were in the 1800's or if you were in some alternate world where everyone was a gay man, and straights were persecuted. Really try to think about it. Imagine 99% of the heros being gay, or coloured. Imagine some of them shooting down being straight. Or apply it to something else you care about. Can you grasp the idea of what it feels like to maybe have to move from a place that accepts you, to a place that would stone you to death? Or even a place where you're told you have to change or keep it to yourself? I am sick of straight people telling me it's not an issue, and that I should just keep mum about my gayness and life would be great. How selfish.

3) You know why you don't see a need for gay rolemodels? Because you never needed them. Yes, not everyone's rolemodels need to be just like them, but imagine if every great person was a white man with 1960's ideals. Imagine all the types of people that would feel out of place, that would feel bad because they don't fit in to the majority. Minorities look to those like them to give them strength and guidance in the face of Majority that doesn't allow them to integrate well. Because the USA is still a place that doesn't say "gay is ok" and lots of other places don't say that either. So there's lots of gays with a whole world telling them they're wrong. And here you have the nerve to roll your eyes and complain about how it's all overhyped.

4) Comparing getting bullied for being gay to getting bullied over zits.... do I even have to SAY anything to that...? You're brushing off all the gay hate by saying "yeah well... some kids are bullied for being fat and having zits, so it's not an issue" That doesn't make any sense

5) "But what in the world does homosexuality bring to the table that actually adds to being a better person that should be looked up to?" It gives gays someone to look up to. Someone who proves that we're not some sub-human, demon possessed, twisted minded, pedophilic, or sick group of people to be tossed into an asylum. Gay rolemodels show us that we're people, and we have something to fight for: The right to love people, something you clearly take so much for granted, that you haven't really thought what it might be like to be in our shoes. A gay rolemodel is also a first step into showing that we're NOT lispy guys that do your hair, or mullet haired girls in combat boots. We're sick of being an unrealistic, toony token. We want to be treated like people. Because everyone deserves to feel like an equal human being, not rammed into some 1900's conceived notion of what is man, and what is woman.

And finally... I'm not asking that we find some average gay joe and make him out to be a hero. I don't know where you got that idea from. I'm asking that we see more gay characters in video games, which shed a good light on it, and give gays something to relate to. Sex isn't everything, but being gay isn't all sex either. Saying we don't need that is like telling non-white kids that they don't need rolemodels of their skin colour, the current white rolemodels are good enough. Yes they are, but those role models didn't have to overcome what those coloured kids had too. And it's the same for us gays.

Have you ever been gay bashed? Have you ever had friends tell you just to hide your gayness? Have you ever had to think about moving to a place that might kill or fire you for being what you are, just to make a living? Have you ever had to tell people you were gay? Or have it revealed when you didn't want to? I'm lucky as hell, I live in Canada, I'm tripping over gay and gender queer friends, it's great. I can go get married anywhere in this awesome country. But cross the border and that isn't true. In the "great" US of A, you can get fired for being gay.

So in terms of video games? Along with more realistic females, how about more realistic gays and gender queers? How about being able to play a gay or gender queer character in RPG's? Morrowind let men wear skirts -- I mean geeze, the freakin imperial guards flaunted around in purple skirts as part of their uniforms and there was a tax collector in that game that wore one... just because HE wanted to. In Skyrim you can marry ANYONE regardless of your gender, even if they sadly took out men in skirts. Heck, in that game that don't even touch on gender issues, it's mainly about racism, and it's done to make you think... or just give you a fantasy world where you can pretend to be a racist.

But I think it could go further. I hate having to play a guy character JUST so I don't have to run around in a bikini with bouncing boobies. I don't run around with my elbows stuck inward with all feminine grace, why can't we have more between buff guy and girly girl? Why does gay have to be a tacked on side note?

Now I'm rambling. But I hope I've made my point clear.