House rule: Aerial Assaults

[WestRider]

A simpler take on it: Swooping FMCs Vector Striking Zooming Flyers may choose to sacrifice both their Shooting Attacks instead of just one. If they do so, resolve the Attacks as tho the FMC were Gliding and had Assaulted a normal Vehicle, so normal number of Attacks (including the Charge bonus), hitting against WS1, may choose to Smash, hits Rear Armour, all that sort of thing. Sorted.

Including the option to Smash feels kind of weird to me, since a flying MC can't really brace itself against anything, but if you don't include that option, Storm Ravens are still essentially untouchable.

[commandersasha]

I think it would be worth mathammering some of these alternative suggestions; as we are looking at an isolated event that is repeatable, mathammer is quite relevant.

In my original post, the results that came out meant that if the opponent was daring, or stupid enough to end up too close, and I could glide attack, he was penalised: I like that. If he stayed away, I had a lower chance of a penetrating.
Either way, Glancing to death was unlikely.
The usual result of my idea would be that for the enemy's next turn, the flier would be misplaced, probably choosing to leave airspace, and with little shooting capacity. This feels fair, comparable to a tank being Shaken, Stunned etc; the NEXT turn it is free to return from Ongoing Reserves etc, and go back to doing what it likes.

My idea of how this plays cinematically was not so much the FMC grappling in mid-air, more a cross between Vector Strike and Ramming. Let's face it, Planes are pretty fragile: I can ram my car into a lamppost, and most times still drive off, even if the tracking is off and the engine is steaming; if a helicopter clips a crane, however, it smears itself all over London.

Based on the above, how about the following revision:

Vector Charge
A FMC may elect to Vector Charge a Flyer in it's Movement phase; it may end its move in base contact with a Flier, either gliding or swooping.
It may not perform additional Vector Strikes as it moves.

It may not fire in the shooting phase.
If friendly units wish to fire at the flier, shots must be randomised between the target flier, and the friendly FMC.

It then performs its normal smash attacks, as if it were against a normal vehicle.
If it swooped, attacks are resolved against the facing in contact.

Any successful glancing or penetrating hits cause the vehicle to spin around; the crew are Shaken, and a scatter die is used to point the vehicle in its new direction (attacker chooses on a "hit"). The Vehicle may not pivot before it's next zoom move, but may choose to hover instead if it can.

Finally it takes an unsaveable wound, and must take a grounding test.

TL:DR, my FMC takes a definite wound for charging, possibly a second one for grounding, maybe a third if it is unlucky and the vehicle explodes nearby (although only at S6/AP-, like any other model OUTSIDE the wreck). It also stands a good chance of being left vulnerable to ground forces.

Note: RebG is a good friend of mine, a great guy to play against, and his Angels Sanguine are a stunning army to look at; he is certainly NOT an autowin player!

[rebg]

Feb 2, 2013 4:05:04 GMT ranmafan said:

The primary difference against air units right now is that our only models that can actually SHOOT (or VS) at Flyers caps out at S6 (without a lucky Biomancy roll), we're limited to firing 2 weapons at most, and have no AP. So what the OP is saying is that we have all the usual weaknesses and almost none of the strengths that a Nid army would have. Yes, flyers are always a risk when transporting troops, etc. - but it's a tradeoff: speed of deployment vs. vulnerability.

The main argument is that dedicated Gunships are what kills Nids with little chance of retaliation. (Troop transports, while scary and juicy targets, are certainly not so much of a threat as their payload is largely manageable) The suggestion is that Nid FMCs deal with them in the same way our ground troops have always dealt with vehicles is a natural extension of our basic tactics and logic.

I agree with all of this, much more tidily written than mine!

Feb 2, 2013 4:05:04 GMT ranmafan said:

My addition to this post:

• FMCs that wish to assault zooming flyers MUST be in Swooping mode, and must end their movement phase at least 3" away from the target vehicle.
  
• During the charge sub-phase the FMC MUST roll as per usual charge distances (2d6) - this means if it stops 3" away and rolls a double 1, the charge fails. Flyers may not overwatch as they are vehicles.
  
• FMCs may not Smash flyers. (The effort of hanging on and clawing a vehicle at high speeds is too much!)
  
• However, the FMC will always strike at the rear AV as per normal assault rules, to represent the chances of breaking something important.
  
• If an enemy Flyer is wrecked or destroyed, the FMC may consolidate as normal, but immediately reverts to Gliding mode.
  

The only change I'd suggest here is to not worry about the three inches, but just fail the charge on double 1. With a little playtest this could be tweaked - any double, initiative test on 2D6 etc and see what woeks best. Also, through a couple of tests, could work as if failed takes a hit of some sort. We can play around with that.

Feb 2, 2013 4:05:04 GMT ranmafan said:

• The FMC will also hit with all its attacks automatically, as it has now latched onto the Flyer model.

I'm in between on this one. I think it's a decent substitution for no smash, but in most cases vs A10, auto hitting will take it straight down. Rpricew's suggestion of WS4 for Zoomers is good (will make little difference vs a HT anyway) but balances it out a little in the wider scheme of things.

I think it's worth remembering that FMC's are much more maneuverable than flyers (zooming) and, in most cases, this assault is going to happen the turn the flyer arrives - 6(?) S6 attacks on (average) rear A10 is that flyer glanced to death at least on the turn it moves on

Feb 2, 2013 4:05:04 GMT ranmafan said:

• The FMC does, however, suffer any wounds caused by the exploding Flyer if it is hit by the Large Blast Marker during this time. (Consolidate first, then roll for the Blast marker) This is to represent the possibility of being caught up in the exploding vehicle's radius or even getting a claw snagged and being dragged to earth by falling debris.

I think it should just take the hit, same as anyone in CC with a land vehicle would - you don't get to consolidate first then, it just blows up.

Feb 2, 2013 4:05:04 GMT ranmafan said:

• Flyers locked in combat may only move in the Movement phase. They cannot make use of any rules that allow them to move outside the Movement phase. They cannot fire during the Shooting phase. Other Flyers can not fire onto the locked models - this is their duel to the death.

This is also quite powerful. Remember the flyer cant hit back. Therefore you land a Harpy on my flyer (rather than a killer HT that will destroy it) and it's going to have a harder time of breaking it so will stay locked in combat - ideal for you as the flyer is effectively out of the game until you eventually destroy it X turns later.

The flyer should be able to move as normal - it then has two choices. Zoom off and risk assault again next turn - with only 90 degree turn it won't be able to shoot you like a normal tank etc - or (if option available) drop into vulnerable hover mode to turn and deal with you but at higher risk of getting wiped out next turn.

Feb 2, 2013 4:05:04 GMT ranmafan said:

• If they leave the table at any time, both models are counted as Destroyed and removed from play (and VPs are awarded accordingly).
  

I think they should go into reserves but have to be rolled for, even through turn 4 etc. That way it's a gamble for you to charge but also a gamble to fly off the board in order to break the combat.

Maybe we'll try a bit of these out next time I play Sasha (although I promised not to bring flyers so I'll have to ask nicely!) Will be interesting to see it develop.

[ranmafan]

Oh, right. I forgot. Well, we can always drop the locked in combat rules so FMCs and Flyers can still choose to disengage. I kinda like taking the risk of being run off the table if you engage in CC though. xD

[Davor]

I think if a FMC, if going to assault, then maybe, it shouldn't be able to shoot. I mean if he is concentrating to for an assault then he shouldn't be able to use any psychic powers or guns. Too much concentrating on how to grab onto the flier and I would say it's chasing it in the movement phase.

Maybe saying in the movement phase, it has to "chase" the flier so that would mean no shooting, no psychic powers or anything and then it can assault the flier.

This way it can't shoot at it and then assault it. Maybe that would be a bit more fair???

Just an idea to throw out there.

[pom611]

What happens wen a bird flys into a plane? It gets smashed...
What should happen wen a giant monster flys into a plane? It takes an initiative test, followed by a strength 10 hit and grounding test if the initiative test is failed, but has an equal chance of ripping the planes wing off as there the same size.... So the plane takes a number of hits on the facing thats been hit. 1 strength 10 hit if the initiative test failed, or if passed it gets to smash attack with half its attacks, the plane can jink to avoid this assault and the FMC can't do anything but move the tern after as its recovering. The assault only lasts one round even if they both survive as the flyer is moving to fast to be held onto wile zooming.

How's that sound?

[halos]

All this sounds pretty complicated.

The way I would do it would be to just tie it more fully into the main Assault rules:

•Any unit of the type 'Jump Infantry', 'Jetbike' or 'Flying Monstrous Creature' is capable of charging a Flier.
•A significant degree of attention is required in order to intercept such a fast moving vehicle on the wing. A charge may only be declared if the attacking unit moved 12" or less in it's Movement phase. ((Consider playtesting this distance, I just threw the rule in to prevent FMCs throwing 36" assaults out.))
•A Flier is deceptively hard to deal damage to at close range even if one manages to reach it's hull. A flier which has moved up to 12" has WS5. Up to 24" WS7 and up to 36" WS9. ((Obviously these values can be played with as well, as it stands they just provide cut offs for 'hitting on 5s' at WS2/3/4 as the plane goes faster))
•For every missed attack the unit swings against the flier the unit suffers a single wound with no armour saves allowed as the unfortunate individual is tugged into a jet intake or rebounds bodily from the hull. ((Possibly consider having this effect trigger on a 4+ roll or whatever))
•In addition a Flier may attempt to evade attacks in combat by Jinking in a similar manner to evading incoming fire. If it chooses to do so the flier gains a 5++ invulnerable save versus close combat attacks but is forced to Snap Fire in it's next turn. Any damage results saved by this ability do not count as missed attacks for the purposes of the above rule.

Obviously would require a bit of playtesting but that's how I'd do it; grants an option versus fliers which isn't 'bring a Quad gun or hope for the best' but at the same time is reasonably risky and could be quite damaging to a unit depending on the fliers speed.
And as a bonus it doesn't require any extra rules or dice rolls particularly, it's just charge, hits, armour pen, saves as normal.

[chuckles]

Am I missing something here? I was under the impression that FMCs could Vector Strike flyers? I appreciate that strength is a bit of an issue there, but as it goes against side armour it seems to me like it's still a decent tool in our arsenal against most flyers. Perhaps I'm wrong though

[halos]

If you think Glancing on a 6 us a decent tool in our arsenal, then sure, Vector Strikes are great.

Most of the really dangerous Fliers are AV12 on the side (Vendetta, Stormraven.) Our FMCs are S6 max, the Harpy is completely unable to even scratch the paint on AV12 with a Vector Strike.
With the Hive Tyrant seen as VS only gets you, at most, 4 S6 hits you might as well just unload both TL Devourers for ~9 S6 hits instead and hope for the required Glances that way.

Vector Strike isn't really a very efficient option for dealing with Fliers at all (unless you are a Bloodthirster, then it's awesome) hence all this spit-balling towards aerial assaults.

[chuckles]

Fair enough, I didn't realise that side armour 12 was so common (though it does seem odd to me that everyone thinks Heldrakes are so awesome at ganking fliers when they only have 1 pt of strength more than a hive tyrant...)

[revx]

i would just write it as

gliding FMC can assualt zooming fliers as though they were both gliding/hovering.

if the FMC makes it assualt roll the flier can make a jink roll; if successful the assualt fails otherwise assualt as normal. once the assualt is successful jinks saves do not come into play.

if the flier is destroyed the attacking FMC takes the s10 ap1 hit just like the passengers.

[ranmafan]

If only Harpies were allowed to fire their Blast marker weapons at flyers, we'd be able to down them with our Heavy Venom Cannons. They'd finally be useful guns again.

[infornography]

One more point of strength makes a big difference in this case. That one more point of strength is the difference between being able to barely glace a flyer and being able to pen one.

Also Heldrakes are faster than FMCs and only have one gun anyway so they don't sacrifice anything for getting that vector strike in.

Heldrakes aren't great at VSing flyers, but they are capable and it is a secondary functionality to their flame breath so it's seen as a nice bonus rather than as their primary purpose.

If Iron Arm and Adrenal Glands gave us bonuses to VS then it would be a more feasible option.

[nurglitch]

Alternately, why not something a little less rock to the flyer's scissors?

Redo Spore Mines.

Currently there's no reason to use Spore Mines because they cost two Termagants each, take up Fast Attack slots, and can be cleared out any AV11+ vehicle (they don't even need to tank shock). Giving them anti-aircraft utility might kill two birds with one stone.

Firstly, keep the Fast Attack slot. Out of this slot you buy Spore Clusters. Each cluster gives you D6 Spore Mines to Deep Strike from ongoing reserves each turn (Orbital Deployment), following the rules for Deep Strikes except when they don't mishap if they scatter on top of, or within 2", of an enemy model. Instead of a mishap, they hit with the following profile (Living Bomb):

Bio-Acid Blast: Rng: N/A, S4 AP4, Assault 1, Large Blast, Armourbane, Floating

*Floating allows the large blast to affect zooming flyers and swooping monstrous creatures. The spore mines engage gas bladders to float up and down in the atmosphere.

The Armourbane represents the acidic blood of the spore melting the vehicle. No more driving through the spores because that risks losing a hull point for whatever vehicle moving through it. Spores explode at the end of the enemy movement phase if an enemy model passed within 2" of the model during the Movement phase (Living Bomb). They're immobile, so no dicking around with movement after they've landed (Immobile Pod).

So starting on T2, you can pelt enemy units with a barrage of D6 Spore Mines, or deploy them in front of vehicles and flyers, or use them to interdict areas and waste enemy firepower clearing them out. Like they're supposed to do.

Spore Mine Clusters...50pts
WS0 BS0 S1 T1 W1 I1 A0 Ld10 Sv-
Composition: 1D6 per turn
Unit Type: Infantry
Weapons and Biomorphs: Bio-Acid Blast
Special Rules: Orbital Deployment, Living Bomb, Immobile Pod

[Obsidorox]

I like Nurglitch's approach with the spore mine bombardment idea. There is room for new/revamped units and/or new biomorph options) to handle flyers. For example, instead of just having a flyer with a high strength to vector strike flyers, why not create a cheaper MC (I'll call it Wyvern) with a special rule:

Starfall: If the Wyvern makes a successful vector strike, it can choose to sacrifice it's shooting that turn and 2 vector strike hits to force the enemy flyer into hover mode until it's next movement phase.

Flying MC grabs an enemy flyer, throws it toward the ground, and your hive guard nail it with impaler cannon shots or a rampaging trygon assaults it. It's synergistic which feels pretty niddy.

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