|
Post by commandersasha on Feb 1, 2013 17:22:02 GMT
I am finding it frustrating that all of my buddies have fliers, which they enjoy using, but I have no counter for; I have a DakkaFlyrant, but unless they are stupid enough to let me jump it and shoot it in the back, which they never are, even that struggles to take one down, and certainly exposes itself to instant retribution to do so.
I want to suggest a house rule to my gaming group, to add aerial assaults to regular 40K games, and I'd be interested to hear The Hive's input.
My initial ideas are:
1) Assaults can be performed as a usual vehicle assault when the FMC has Glided.
2) Assaults can be performed after Swooping, but are resolved against the appropriate armour facing.
3) Attacks are as normal, based on WS, and Smash Attacks are allowed.
4) The normal damage table is used for Penetrating hits, including the modifiers for Fliers and Flying Transports.
And here is the fun bit: 5) If a Glancing hit is scored, the vehicle is swung around and the crew disorientated; roll a scatter die to see the new facing (Attacking player chooses if a "hit" is rolled); the vehicle may now not pivot before its next zoom move, and the crew count as "Shaken"
The way I see it is that this gives the Flyrant and the Harpy a viable though not overpowered assault role against fliers; A bit of Mathammer if you're interested:
Flyrant against rear armour 10: 3 Smash attacks at Str10, average 1.83 glances, including1.67 Pens
Flyrant swooping against armour 12: 3 Smash attacks at Str10, average 1.44 glances, including 1.17 Pens
Harpy against rear armour 10: 2 Smash attacks at Str10, average 1.11 glances, including 0.96 Pens
Harpy swooping against armour 12: 2 Smash attacks at Str10, average 0.59 glances, including 0.41 Pens
In other words, you're certainly not guaranteed to take it out the sky, but you have a good chance of swinging it round, which probably interrupts his plans for the next turn with it, and for that turn you are also quietening his guns. I figure that this is a fair trade-off.
What do you guys think?
|
|
|
Post by swarmy on Feb 1, 2013 17:48:35 GMT
Can you write our next codex? That seems perfectly reasonable and brings a level of balance to the flyer vs flying monstrous creature issue. Expecting us to trash our other 3 gun options and take a single build to counter a meta shift was never a reasonable expectation from GW.
|
|
|
Post by zoat on Feb 1, 2013 17:55:36 GMT
I like that ruleset, it's worth to have a try. Ask your friends for one-two games for testing and tell us the results. In fact just Nids and Demon Princes are affected by this, but hey, they're punished with stupid grounding tests, so they should get something instead. With Smash-Attacks of S10 against AV12 glancing hits are only on 2. On AV10 they just don't appear. So the moments the fun rule comes to play are rare, otherwise I'd have said to swing around the flyer at your will is too overpowered.
|
|
|
Post by infornography on Feb 1, 2013 18:34:18 GMT
I would do away with the glancing hit result, it is too powerful.
Also if you are complaining about not being able to get their rear arc, assaulting them is going to be pretty hard to do as well.
|
|
|
Post by guns on Feb 1, 2013 21:38:48 GMT
Sounds pretty fair to me, although I second the idea that the glancing result may be seen as too powerful. You'd already be getting a huge advantage over pure-codex Tyranids, since you'd be able to Smash Flyers and have an extremely good chance of downing them.
Another suggestion I have is to throw your gaming group a bone by tweaking the rule to allow their armies to actually benefit from it, rather than just Tyranid armies (and whatever other couple of armies have FMCs). For example, allow jump-pack units to also assault Flyers, as well as being allowed to assault swooping FMCs.
|
|
|
Post by Davor on Feb 1, 2013 22:07:03 GMT
I almost started a Chaos SM army, because I loved the pic of the Dragon flier thingy assaulting a fighter. Reason I didn't start Chaos SM? Because it can't be done.
So I love the rules you have put in Sasha, please try them out and let us know how it goes. I am all for house rules and once my gaming table is made, I plan on having lots of house rules for 40K for me and my son. So adding more would be great.
|
|
|
Post by commandersasha on Feb 1, 2013 22:34:18 GMT
I posted a link to this thread on my gaming group Facebook page, and my Blood Angels friend posted this reply (he isn't a member here so couldn't reply himself):
"The only issue is that it's all reward and no risk for you - you get to jump about with what is a rather powerful unit (both shooting and cc) vs most things. Adding 'free' assault vs flyers to that arsenal, especially attacking at strength 10, is obviously great for you but it's just a bit...easy?
By easy I think I mean risk free: You're still in flight so aren't at risk of getting counter assaulted next turn If the flyer survives and continues to zoom it can't shoot you next turn as you'll be too close (unlike a tank that can reverse and unload into your face). For me especially, it makes the chances of zooming transport exploding even more likely- followed by the strength 10, AP1 hits. The spinning idea is fun, but also potentially open to abuse - you don't have to try and knock it out of the sky, just glance in once per turn and it's potentially useless if it never faces the right direction. We'd have to play test that.
So there's all that and you aren't losing out at all. I'm not saying a Stormraven should be able to try killing you, but I would say, if it did play, maybe something to add a little risk - the FMC takes a hit at the strength of the flyers leading armour value (at maybe AP4), you are flying into a sub-sonic aircraft after all - it's gonna bump. Also, if the flyer explodes, the FMC takes one of those S10 AP1 hits like anyone inside (or out in the case of Dreads) would. That way, while having a really very maneuverable way to tackle a flyer, there's risk involved and one MC ins't suddenly going to take out a Bomma Skwadron single handedly."
|
|
|
Post by commandersasha on Feb 1, 2013 22:46:58 GMT
Personally I am finding fliers very frustrating: Tyranids have so little chance of stopping fliers, and a flier can get anywhere fast, usually with great offensive capability; most of the ones I face can also hover, so can't be trapped into not stopping where they want.
I don't think that FMCs are an amazing upgrade over 5th edition; the increased range and safety from being shot at with Swooping is offset by the fact that it costs you an assault that turn, and the whole point of MCs is that they want to be in assault.
Fliers meanwhile can get from one side of the board to the other in a single move, making a mockery of any tactical positioning.
Imagine a chess piece that can teleport to any square, taking an enemy piece if it lands on one. That is how I feel about fliers!
By my Mathammer(if correct), my Aerial Assault is going to average 1-2 glances a turn, and the flier will be out of assaulting range next turn, so is not an insta-kill; it is more of a tool to disrupt a unit that always disrupts me!
I do appreciate that the aerial assault rule would probably be keenest felt by my friend's Angels Sanguine, however, as he uses a 2 Stormraven list, so by the time the Ravens are full of guys and dreads, that's 2/3 of his army in two planes!
|
|
|
Post by infornography on Feb 1, 2013 23:02:32 GMT
I would design the rule differently.
Something like a model with vector strike can choose to sacrifice all shooting attacks to attempt to grapple an enemy flyer or FMC. This is basically an attack roll with no damage. If successful then they are considered to be engaged except that the owner of the attacked flyer can still move though at minimum speed. Then during the assault phase any models with vector strike can attack as they were engaged, if the model is not an FMC but has vector strike then it's strength is whatever is in it's vector strike profile, it's weapon skill is 3, and its attack attribute is 3. It can make smash attacks as if it was an FMC. If the attacked flyer does not have vector strike, then it can still fire up to 2 guns during the firing phase of it's turn
If the enemy flyer drops to hover it can disengage as a normal vehicle, basically representing shaking the attacker off. Alternatively if it leaves the board then both it and the attacking flyer or FMC are returned separately to their owner's reserve also representing shaking the attacker off, though this time through high speed maneuvers.
If the attacked flyer crashes, the grappling attacker has to make a disengage check on 3+ If it fails it takes damage as if it was a passenger on the crashing flyer and is grounded if it is an FMC. If it is a flyer then it drops to hover automatically instead of being grounded after taking the crash damage.
This has downsides, risks, and gives you the ability to actually cripple an enemy flyer.
|
|
|
Post by Davor on Feb 2, 2013 0:01:16 GMT
No risk eh? Well what about him using fliers, and you not? Where is his risk? OH WAIT he needs the EASY BUTTON LOL.
Ok, how about risk then. When you attack, he gets a jinx save. If he passes the save, he Zooms, or barrels roll out of the way so that would mean you can't attack and next turn you can't attack either because now the FMC has to get it's bearings, or something like that.
Just an idea.
|
|
|
Post by swarmy on Feb 2, 2013 0:34:48 GMT
No risk eh? Well what about him using fliers, and you not? Where is his risk? OH WAIT he needs the EASY BUTTON LOL. Ok, how about risk then. When you attack, he gets a jinx save. If he passes the save, he Zooms, or barrels roll out of the way so that would mean you can't attack and next turn you can't attack either because now the FMC has to get it's bearings, or something like that. Just an idea. Wait, we have no risk? What the hell? We have to currently sink in 260+ points, and an HQ slot to *possibly (*if the stars align and we don't end up on the board before it comes on to blast us out of the air) glance a few hull points off while facing a hail of low AP, frequently skyfire, shooting. Please, have your friend explain to me the lack of risk. It's still a 260 point model with no *invulnerable* saves and only 4 wounds flapping around a barrage of low AP high strength fire to get to the darn thing.
|
|
rebg
Ripper
Posts: 2
|
Post by rebg on Feb 2, 2013 1:55:48 GMT
Ok, how about risk then. When you attack, he gets a jinx save. If he passes the save, he Zooms, or barrels roll out of the way so that would mean you can't attack and next turn you can't attack either because now the FMC has to get it's bearings, or something like that. Just an idea. I'll ignore the easy button part... Cheeky scamp. I like this idea though, nice and simple Wait, we have no risk? What the hell? We have to currently sink in 260+ points, and an HQ slot to *possibly (*if the stars align and we don't end up on the board before it comes on to blast us out of the air) glance a few hull points off while facing a hail of low AP, frequently skyfire, shooting. Please, have your friend explain to me the lack of risk. It's still a 260 point model with no *invulnerable* saves and only 4 wounds flapping around a barrage of low AP high strength fire to get to the darn thing. That would be me. Yes, yes, yes...poor you, we (non-nids) get it. Having played Sasha only twice in 6th it's clear that the flyer is a (understatement warning) bit of an issue. I'm sure you're all sick to the back teeth of them to be honest - in our two games Sasha wiped most of my stuff off the board turns 1 and 2 and I had little in the way of looking like winning, yet the flyers (more to the point their contents) tore through his army. I'd be a bit miffed too. BUT I don't think that means being allowed to normally assault a flyer with a strong combat unit is the simple, balanced answer. So, risk.... Flying transports in particular do play with risk, quite a lot. We usually play 1,500 points. I don't spam, min/max or follow net lists. I play the same themed Blood Angels I've played since way back - they're a flying assault army for me, always will be. 620 points of my current list is in one Raven. Is this wise? No. Fun/Thematic? Yes. Risky? Very much. Considering a lot of shooting I'll take is AP2/AP1 (admittedly not against you lot ;P), I'll more often than not explode. So out of the 7 inside, 1 or, if lucky, maybe 2 walk away. The Dreadnought is auto pen'd now too as well. If this happens, and a third of my army dies in one shot, it puts me in (here comes another one) a bit of a tight spot. Not bad for one lascannon etc? One of which couldn't take down your big bug by the way, so don't feel too sorry for yourself, those critters aren't bad in other situations. Yes, being able to unload just about the best assault unit in the game (I'm biased) and have Death Company, Chaplain and Dread deployed where I want them, when I want them is VERY strong. But to do that I'm going to hover and, generally, if I hover I more than likely die (Hive Guard *grumble grumble*). So surely that is a balance of sorts. I know this is only one flyers point of view. I'm yet to face a double Helldrake list - surprisingly not in a rush - and suffer as much as anyone else against Vendettas (my DC rarely make it to combat unscathed vs Guard). I also get that flyers are a sore point when using a codex not written with them in mind. I hope you get an update of sorts sometime soon! In the mean time I think this house rule thing can be fun. I think it needs to be more about how to combat flyers rather than just kill them though - it should be a fight, not a one sided smash fest. Adding a little risk (to the combat mechanic, not to playing Nids in general) and being prepared to take a wound or two to potentially kill the flyer is surely much better than not being able to kill the flyer and having it murder your FMC... Sorry for the ramble, it's late and I've typed a lot (this is edited down, hope it still make sense). Keep helping Sasha out, lord knows he needs it!
|
|
|
Post by rpricew on Feb 2, 2013 4:04:44 GMT
I like the idea of the Aerial Assault. I was hoping that the new rumored Harpy anti aircraft variant would have a type of Aerial Assault rule instead of a shooting attack.
I would love to see the FMC give up its shooting to be able to Turbo boost over the Flyer in question during the shooting phase and use its normal attack profile, including smash to attack the Flyer. Count flyers as WS 4 if Zooming and normal WS rules if they are in Hover/Skimmer mode. Allow them their Jink save to balance it out, since FMC get the AP2 +1 on the Damage chart.
During the Shooting phase, the FMC may make a 45 degree pivot and turbo boost over the Flyer. Make the range 12-18" to perform an Aerial Assault.
It's simple and easy but not overpowered...
|
|
|
Post by ranmafan on Feb 2, 2013 4:05:04 GMT
I've had the same thought for a long time: FMCs should be able to assault Flying vehicles as normal. Simply put, every game against vehicle flyers has resulted in my decimation - and them not having a scratch. Here are what I think are the pros and cons of each side: FMCs Pros: Multi wounds - unless hit by an instant death attack, able to survive multiple high-powered, penetrating blows. Highly versatile with Glide and Swoop, usual MC bonuses. Does not suffer from Vehicle Damage tables. Can be fielded on Turn 1. Vector Strike Cons: Limited strength, toughness, number of weapons that can be fired. Once grounded, can be killed by ID attacks. Vehicles Pros: High toughness against most forms of damage (when compared to the To Hit probabilities). HUGE number of weapons (4 at WS, rest Snap Shot), HUGE number of high Str attacks. Cons: High vulnerability to other Flyers, vulnerable to high-powered, penetrating attacks. Must come in from Reserves. Basically as it stands, the strength of the Tyranid MCs vs. a ground-based vehicle are the same - we can take more hits reliably, whereas a lucky hit will destroy a vehicle in one hit. Tyranids still struggle to shoot vehicles to death without Hive Guards - our primary antitank defense are MCs smashing tanks. The primary difference against air units right now is that our only models that can actually SHOOT (or VS) at Flyers caps out at S6 (without a lucky Biomancy roll), we're limited to firing 2 weapons at most, and have no AP. So what the OP is saying is that we have all the usual weaknesses and almost none of the strengths that a Nid army would have. Yes, flyers are always a risk when transporting troops, etc. - but it's a tradeoff: speed of deployment vs. vulnerability. The main argument is that dedicated Gunships are what kills Nids with little chance of retaliation. (Troop transports, while scary and juicy targets, are certainly not so much of a threat as their payload is largely manageable) The suggestion is that Nid FMCs deal with them in the same way our ground troops have always dealt with vehicles is a natural extension of our basic tactics and logic. My addition to this post: - FMCs that wish to assault zooming flyers MUST be in Swooping mode, and must end their movement phase at least 3" away from the target vehicle.
- During the charge sub-phase the FMC MUST roll as per usual charge distances (2d6) - this means if it stops 3" away and rolls a double 1, the charge fails. Flyers may not overwatch as they are vehicles.
- FMCs may not Smash flyers. (The effort of hanging on and clawing a vehicle at high speeds is too much!)
- However, the FMC will always strike at the rear AV as per normal assault rules, to represent the chances of breaking something important.
- The FMC will also hit with all its attacks automatically, as it has now latched onto the Flyer model.
- If an enemy Flyer is wrecked or destroyed, the FMC may consolidate as normal, but immediately reverts to Gliding mode.
- The FMC does, however, suffer any wounds caused by the exploding Flyer if it is hit by the Large Blast Marker during this time. (Consolidate first, then roll for the Blast marker) This is to represent the possibility of being caught up in the exploding vehicle's radius or even getting a claw snagged and being dragged to earth by falling debris.
- Both models count as being in Locked Velocity while in combat - the model being attacked counts its movement for both models. (e.g a Stormtalon is being attacked by a Harpy - both models move according to the Stormtalon's movement rules)
- Flyers locked in combat may only move in the Movement phase. They cannot make use of any rules that allow them to move outside the Movement phase. They cannot fire during the Shooting phase. Other Flyers can not fire onto the locked models - this is their duel to the death.
- If they leave the table at any time, both models are counted as Destroyed and removed from play (and VPs are awarded accordingly).
The rules are as close to normal assault as possible, while accounting for the movement abilities of both models. The main differences are: 1) Smash has been disabled, but hits are automatic and resolved against rear AV. 2) Both units are moving at the same time - the risk to the Nid player is that if the flyer isn't destroyed in one turn, the opponent may elect to 'take you with me'. 3) FMCs are vulnerable to... well, everything immediately following a successful Flyer assault including the resultant explosion. The usual Nid defense of 'the safest place to be is in close combat' applies - the ideal time to destroy a Flyer being in the opponent's Assault phase (as with all Nid assault tactics) Of course this is all fanwankery, but I think this is the fairest way to resolve aerial combat.
|
|
|
Post by rpricew on Feb 2, 2013 4:12:15 GMT
ranmafan - I like your proposed rules except the vehicle/FMC being locked in combat at the end of the phase. Since vehicles can never be locked in combat with non vehicles, it seems too much of a departure. It's still a well written thought though.
|
|