Anti Flying Necron Croissant Spam!

[maugrim]

Why is there an argument about the guys embarked on a Flying Transport taking the hits? Because the Fluff says they're not really embarked?

Even the codex rules about Scythes are clear. They always talk about the "embarked unit" and "embarking and disembarking" the occupants. Necron Codex pg 51: "If the Night Scythe is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters reserve (when they arrive, they cannot Deep Strike)."

For a Wrecked Transport vehicle, the rules state (BRB pg 80), "The passengers must immediately disembark in the usual manner (see pg 79) save that they must end their move wholly within 3" rather than 6"." For Crash and Burn (BRB pg 81), "If the Flyers is also a transport, all models within suffer a Strength 10 hit with no armour saves allowed. Survivors are placed anywhere within 3" of the blast marker's final position and in unit coherency. Any models that cannot be placed are removed as casualties."

[As an being-too-literal aside, if you wanted to really go strictly by RAW, since the Codex rules state that they cannot be placed (they're in Reserve) they should be removed as casualties (as per BRB). But lets instead assume that they don't really want to set up *that* problem.]

1) The Flyer is a Transport, and there is a unit Embarked within it. (No point arguing against that - if your unit *isn't* Embarked, you can't use Invasion Beams to Disembark, can you?)
2) If the Flyer is destroyed, the models within it take a Str 10, armour ignoring hit.
3) They get placed onto the table.
4) Codex states they don't disembark, they get sent to Reserves.

Again though, strictly speaking, Crash and Burn placement *isn't* disembarking, so by RAW they should still land on the table. By Codex they are not allowed to "disembark" which they aren't. They're being placed next to where a blast marker ended up, which isn't Disembarking. Unless you equate it to the "Wrecked" result (which it is almost precisely the same as), which means you're accepting your unit is Embarked and should be treated as such.

Using the fluff of wormholes and not-really-there explaination of how the model works in the Warhammer Universe and attempting to use that in-game is like saying these 10 Marines should be able to defeat that horde of orks; or my Tyranids should be able to mutate before game in order to change my list to face whatever I'm fighting against; or I should get new Orks because new fungus spores are popping up in the middle of the field...

[Jabberwocky]

I'd do the hits on them then put them in reserves, if any lived. I think that's the closest to following both rules.

[halvar]

Oct 30, 2012 17:30:25 GMT fragile said:

Oct 30, 2012 0:53:38 GMT t⊗theark said:

No, that's it. They usually on an objective, in cover or way near the back of the board. The unit is surprizingly hard to kill and when the flyers start coming he does this unit juggling with warriors on the ground. Usually what's left get's beamed up, taken over and beamed into your ranks by the next opportunity.

Well that is a seriously risky tactic. Im not sure what list you play, but unless he goes first, there is a very very good chance he gets tabled before his turn 2. In the beginning I was concerned about a local 6 flyer list, with swarms and the spyders. But after playing it a few times, I found the flyers just dont put out enough firepower for me to really worry about. They have good quality and will generally kill things but it takes about 18 wounds from a Night Scythe to kill a Tervigon (without any buffs). Also you can avoid alot of firepower by clustering your troops, in my case, gargolyes and spawned termagant in the center of the board, near maximum coherency and limit the places the NS can go to. So usually they will fly on the board, get to shoot and then have to fly off or into a corner the next round and not shoot at anything useful.

Second issue here is you have to kill 1 unit to auto win. While that can be hard for most typically Tyranid lists, using things like Biovores, Flyrants, and Hive Guard can seriously wound that one unit in the first turn. Given this opponent, I might stay with codex powers for Onslaught for the HG. Ymgarls popping out on R2 can easily eat that command unit. Not to mention assaulting with the Flyrant and Gargoyles in R2.

Finally, there is no quantity of firepower for them. They have small groups of warriors which will be easily killed the moment they drop out of the NS. The only real option is to keep them in the NS until the end of the game, which leaves them vulnerable to simple shooting from the HG. 11AV is not hard to punch with S8 hits. But he will want to get the warriors out since his commander will get eaten by assault otherwise.

With that 9 Flyer list, you simply need to worry about positioning your guys to prevent the Flyers from having consecutive shots one important targets. Keep your key troops, HG, etc in cover and use your buffs as normal. If you can lock the Flyrant in combat VS a unit on his turn, you will have a huge advantage on him.

he only needs to survive one turn. the tabled=win is for entire game turns so even if you go first he doesn't have to worry too much about nids tabling him in one shooting phase. and then he gets to do his ever-living roll...

[t⊗theark]

Sorry I didn't see this before.

Oct 30, 2012 17:30:25 GMT fragile said:

Well that is a seriously risky tactic. Im not sure what list you play, but unless he goes first, there is a very very good chance he gets tabled before his turn 2. In the beginning I was concerned about a local 6 flyer list, with swarms and the spyders. But after playing it a few times, I found the flyers just dont put out enough firepower for me to really worry about. They have good quality and will generally kill things but it takes about 18 wounds from a Night Scythe to kill a Tervigon (without any buffs). Also you can avoid alot of firepower by clustering your troops, in my case, gargolyes and spawned termagant in the center of the board, near maximum coherency and limit the places the NS can go to. So usually they will fly on the board, get to shoot and then have to fly off or into a corner the next round and not shoot at anything useful.

My list is linked in the original post, here it is again.Also, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Strenth 7 4 tesla hits with the arch is nothing to scoff at. We're dealing with 9 of these as well as 3 deathrays - the things that killed my tervigon within 2 turns (as well as killing most of my warriors, biovores and hiveguard at the same time). Also, clustering ddoesn't sound like a sound idea due to the arch special rule.

Oct 30, 2012 17:30:25 GMT fragile said:

Second issue here is you have to kill 1 unit to auto win. While that can be hard for most typically Tyranid lists, using things like Biovores, Flyrants, and Hive Guard can seriously wound that one unit in the first turn. Given this opponent, I might stay with codex powers for Onslaught for the HG. Ymgarls popping out on R2 can easily eat that command unit. Not to mention assaulting with the Flyrant and Gargoyles in R2.

Firstly it's two units, just he deploys them close to eachother. Secondly it's Tryzan and a bunch of lych guard, that's not easy to kill. Finally, it's on the other side of the board. So we have two units, one giving the other the chance o be immortal, both which are difficult to kill out side of the range of most weapons and they have to all be dead by turn 2. Ymgarls are something that might actually take them down for good but tryzan, wth mind shackle scarabs and the obliterator, is also no pushover in combat.

Oct 30, 2012 17:30:25 GMT fragile said:

Finally, there is no quantity of firepower for them. They have small groups of warriors which will be easily killed the moment they drop out of the NS. The only real option is to keep them in the NS until the end of the game, which leaves them vulnerable to simple shooting from the HG. 11AV is not hard to punch with S8 hits. But he will want to get the warriors out since his commander will get eaten by assault otherwise.

Once again, tryzan does not get eaten in assault and the doom/night scythes have quite a quantity of fire power. Do you know what a Tesla destructor can do? Not only on a role of a 6 can they get two extra shots but they also have a chance of hitting units within 6 inches of them as well. And don't even start with death rays. After that, it's simply a case of killing things that can kill him first. That much strength 7, ap 4 will see hive guard done with, and shooting flyrants out of the sky with eaqual ease

I mean if it was just night scythes then it would less of an up hill battle but having 36+ strength 7 shots rain down on you isn't helped by 3 8" long lines of ap1 strength 10 popping up everywhere.

[halos]

Not that it makes much difference but Tesla Destructors are, like all Tesla Weapons, Ap-, not AP4. But you are correct in that the weight of fire is more than enough to crush Hive Guard regardless of AP.

[t⊗theark]

That's right, I have no idea what substance I was on during that post that I would be under the impression tesla weapons had an ap value.

[leeroy1986]

Just throw in a bit of Iron Arm/Endurance against such armies and you will be fine =]