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Post by snowdaman on Oct 15, 2012 10:37:14 GMT
Adult pastime sitting around and talking about ur kids or complaining about them lol
Sent from my GT-I9100M using proboards
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Oct 15, 2012 23:26:01 GMT
"What exactly is a "grown up" passtime?" Sex... So Teenagers don't have sex. ... ... odd. I always assumed they did. EDIT: Also, as much as a male mentality would love for it to be a passtime, something to keep yourself preoccupied when your bored and do whenever you want, it really isnt a "passtime" Reading is a passtime, but if 40k is childish because it is fiction, the number of books outside of pride and prejudiced, alongside other books like it, that you can say are an "adult" passtime. For the sake of my sanity because I have never actually read Pride and Prejudice, I will use the example of The Catcher and the Rye, which is fiction as well. It's realistic fiction that makes it adult-like then? Why? What makes a tie to reality something adults do and magic and fantasty something children do. I dont enjoy 40k because it is childish... I enjoy it because I like the story. And, oddly enough, quite a few of the books I can relate to, even though its fiction and fantasy, because stories are written for the purpose of them meaning something that gets you involved. |
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Post by Space is pretty big on Oct 16, 2012 0:56:02 GMT
"So Teenagers don't have sex."
No, they more tend to f*ck... usually forgetting about condoms and ending up on MTV and TLC as a result.
Side note though... I was calling the fluff immature, not playing the game itself... and that verbose post, in no way anyway shows insecurity on the matter... >.> <.< >.> ;9
40k's fluff is childish, not because it's fiction, but because of how that fiction is written.
Actually most of what you listed back there can be either immature or mature, which is the whole point.
Little kids bouncing a ball around because their moms want an hour or two to themselves, is different than someone playing to achieve their dream of competing in the olympics. The game is the same, but what's different is the focus and devotion they put into it, how they execute the game.
Getting drunk and hanging with friends can be a very mature pastime, and can lead to wonderful conversations and explorations of thought and philosophy. Getting drunk, hopping in your car and doing 80 on a 20 mph road is pretty darn immature, and usually shortens you life expectancy as well.
In fact, going back to literature, there's a very big difference between say a Huckleberry Fin, and Twilight. Twilight, written for adults, is technically suppose to be mature, because it has sex and violence, but we know it to be very childish. That's because nothing of consequence or controversy is ever really explored; it's just the story of an emo girl obsessed with a pretty boy, with some bloodshed on the side.
There's no sex in Huckleberry finn, which according to the author is written for kids, and it's tame on the violence compared to say twilight, where a baby gets ripped out of a woman's stomach by a vampire biting her in half. Only, in Huckleberry finn, slavery is put right against your nose, something quite a bit more relevant and real than flying vampires.
Even then, it's not the element of slavery, but the discussion and execution of that element. There's slaves in 40k, but it's used as a story device, not a topic that's explored; especially not in the very meaningful way that Huck finn did. The items are in place, but the way those items are used is the difference between maturity and immaturity.
Which brings us back to sex and 40k. As I mentioned before, in TV and movies, sex is hinted at all the time, but the way it's discussed is like little kids discussing cooties. Very rarely is the consequence of sex, and love, and how it relates to people, ever brought into the discussion. Thats because mature discussions tend to be more controversial ironically than straight up porn, having opinions that defy religions, and moral codes, and personal feelings.
But I'm having a hard time seeing the mature version of sex in 40k, which only really leaves the immature version of porn, or at least erotica.
That then leads back to the first question of whether or not my forum goers, would be ok with that, and to what extend. Erotica can be fun, and some believe it to be entirely innocuous. Others see it as immoral, and especially something dangerous to kids... who unfortunately 40k seems to try to cater to a lot recently.
Still, I'm more interested in others views on the matter, and the depth of those views.
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Post by Yuno on Oct 16, 2012 3:58:06 GMT
...Seems legitimate to me to have that in there....
The whole dangerous to kids argument is plain out and out (please do not swear). They have to be confronted with it sometime, you aren't doing them favors by molly coddling them about it. The ones who it would be bad for are usually to young to understand.
The literature for the universe is everything it sets out to be...a good time...asking it to be like Mark Twain Masterpieces is simply foolish....that'd be like comparing some excellent well written drama to the latest action movie...they just aren't going for the same things really...That said...yes you could clearly get more involved in erotic ideas...and it would hurt it none. I personally have always found it quite amusing that the Slaanesh army is so tame looking....
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Post by t⊗theark on Oct 16, 2012 5:55:14 GMT
I second the whole 'think about the children' approach to sex. Like this goes around to even the birds and bees analoogy. When I was a 4 year old little tike and I asked my dad where babies came from, his response was 'Vagainas' and went on to tell me how they got there. I never understood why telling kids se exist was some taboo, there are many cultures with out such a wall.
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Post by Yuno on Oct 16, 2012 6:17:00 GMT
^My younger brother who was 7 watched the Sopranos with us (all the seasons). I cannot think of a more violent, sexually themed show out there (other than some other HBO shows) and he was and is completely unaffected by it. He's simply too young to be interested in those themes. When people would get shot and killed he'd ask what was going on and we'd try to explain it very generally. The only thing he had to say about Tony cheating on Carmela was that it makes Carmela unhappy and that is bad. The first time a topless lady was around he giggled and said that was unusual....
I myself grew up on terminator 1 which has a very long sex scene in it. I did not watch it for many years after the age of 10 out of my own lack of desire to see it...when I came back and watched it a couple years ago...I did not even remember said scene...
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Post by Space is pretty big on Oct 16, 2012 10:41:40 GMT
"that'd be like comparing some excellent well written drama to the latest action movie...they just aren't going for the same things really."
I believe thats the point I was making >.>
"I never understood why telling kids se exist was some taboo, there are many cultures with out such a wall."
Yeah I'm in the same boat. Was raised informed knowing what sex was, so I simply am ignorant of the opposite opinion on the matter; the idea of treating it as taboo that is.
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Post by Lanesend on Oct 16, 2012 11:56:51 GMT
I come from the Netherlands, and I was raised pretty free-minded about sex / sexuality. As such I really don't have problems with sex being part of an adult game.
The thing is, is that 40K is a 'war'game. And the game emphasizes on that part of life in the 40K world. Of course there are other aspects to that life, such as sex, good cooking, education, you name it. They just don't have a part in the game (to me), unless they are a part of that war.
I do not have any problem with diorama's of guardsmen about to rape an eldar woman, because (to me) that's just another part of the war being shown. Likewise I don't have a problem with a picture of a Lictor who rips apart, say, a schoolyard full of children.
Both of these things are absolutly horrible, but still part of the war(game) we play.
I would have more problems with more realistic sex/love, as that has less to do with the wargame we play, although we can assume that still has a place in the 40K universe. (*)
I do acknowledge that there are people who are offended by this, and out of respect for their views, I wouldn't take a model of a rape victim to a tournament.
I'll finish with a small anekdote. I showed my EC rhino to a couple of friends. (Some of you may have seen it, it was on TTH for a few days). In the back of that Rhino hangs a chained naked woman. It implies she might get raped.
Some people told me that that went to far. Which is fine by me, I can keep the doors closed.
The funny thing was, that when we discussed it, they said they wouldn't have problems with it, if I painted her red and gory, like her skin was just stripped of.
That is taboo for you...
(*) If I wanted to play an adult game which focusses more on sex than war, I would spend my money on a different kind of models. ;D
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Post by Ackor on Oct 16, 2012 13:05:40 GMT
I'm not fussed.
Yours
CA
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Oct 20, 2012 18:32:21 GMT
Then we wont go into the topic of games being immature. The fluff is immature because it doesn't explore philosophical topi... ... Books are immature because they don't explore "philosophical topics"? Really? I could argue that twilight can easily be considered a mature book, because it calls to be examined why, as a society, we have accepted it as a good book/popular story. We can examine what draws us to it. We can examine the natural hate we seem to develop for those things that become popular that we dont understand. (IE; Google image search "Still a better love story than twilight") Huck Finn, at the time it was written, was solely controversial because it showed a white boy and a black man getting along. In that period of time, something *worse* than sex. Twilight shows women having sex with creatures of myth... Twilight, in many schools in the united states, is on the ban reading list just like Huck Finn. As is Harry Potter, How to eat fried worms, and Roll of thunder here my cry (an intelectually inticing book for you to read if you havent already). Even the hunger games is Ban. Even Fight Club is ban. There are books that, in many states, you cannot read at school. Here is a short list, not a full list, from a quick google searchIf these books were not questioned, if these books didnt spark something, then why are they on the ban reading list? I am not saying the Twilight books are masterpieces. Quite honestly I hate them with a fiery passion, and unlike many people I actually have reasons for it. But twilight can be related to, for whatever reason, and has caused a sensation. Similar to the Harry Potter books. It doesn't necessarily call upon philosophical views from the direct point of the book, but its popularity calls in for questioning, "why?" How is that, in any way, the point you were making? I said that passtimes can be mature, but by the logic presented by you they could not. How could it be considered mature outside of something like Pride and Prejudiced? You claimed that 40k fluff was immature by virtue of, let me get this quote right, because it has "...Chainsaw swords, planets exploding, super powers. There is nothing grown up about 40k." If Huck Finn took place in space, but every single theme stayed the same, would Huck Finn have then become trash because it was no longer realistic fiction? Would it be immature because the man who found them on the spaceship realized he was a black man (or something equivalent) and took out a chainsword? Or when they escape the planet with the swindler the planet explodes and they use it as a symbol for ignorance? remember that this, in this fictional never really happened example, is still about slavery. But, to you, it would have been an immature book because it wasnt realistic fiction. The logic there escapes me. |
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Post by Illithid on Oct 20, 2012 21:58:19 GMT
But in saying that Wisdom, the entire "Twilight" series is not banned in schools. In fact, any Year 6-7 can borrow them (on the senior Reading List at the Australian school I work at - a year 6/7 is approx 11-12 years old). I would argue that they are immature.
I would like GW to make the Emperor's CHildren models more "obscene and sexualised". I believe that people need to get over the whole "it is not safe for the eyes of children" thing. I grew up watching Friday the 13th, Stephen King's IT, and a number of other things hat most parents would cringe away from, but I consider myself a well-rounded adult.
An army of naked demonettes is not going to warp the minds of youngsters, hell, they see enough sexualistaion by just spending an hour on TV or the internet.
It probably would offend some people, but I think they need to stop pushing their fears onto the rest of society and hiding behind the "my family" argument, just because it makes them uncomfortable.
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Post by carnogaunt on Oct 21, 2012 4:49:53 GMT
If these books were not questioned, if these books didnt spark something, then why are they on the ban reading list? In most cases, being on a "banned reading list" just means that one or more school districts in the United States elected not to purchase a copy of the book. Or even that one or more parents in one or more school districts in the United States asked the school board to remove it from the school library. In short, "banning" a book does not actually mean anything. No matter what your beliefs are, you can find objectionable content in just about any book. So it follows that popular books are likely to be "banned" somewhere. Meaning that unless a book's popularity is related to its "maturity," there is no correlation between the "maturity" of the book and its probability of being "banned." |
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Oct 22, 2012 0:23:37 GMT
If these books were not questioned, if these books didnt spark something, then why are they on the ban reading list? In most cases, being on a "banned reading list" just means that one or more school districts in the United States elected not to purchase a copy of the book. Or even that one or more parents in one or more school districts in the United States asked the school board to remove it from the school library. In short, "banning" a book does not actually mean anything. No matter what your beliefs are, you can find objectionable content in just about any book. So it follows that popular books are likely to be "banned" somewhere. Meaning that unless a book's popularity is related to its "maturity," there is no correlation between the "maturity" of the book and its probability of being "banned." If you follow my link, you will find several books that are ban for being to mature or their intended age group. I know full and well that by a book beig ban it just means in some places. I know this for the soul reason that my district has ban absolutely no books. We did, back in high school, have a ban book week dedicate to discussing the books and why they were ban. Which, I might add, is a very intelecually stimulating conversation, if anyone cares. But, we are talking about immature books being "intellectually appealing" l that sounds like a paradox to me, it seems, based on the definition of immature presented in this thread. My issue is that what is being said is this. A story or game is immature if it is one of 2 things- not realistic (see the reason 40k isnt a grown up activity) or doesn't address issues that go beyond an every day level. If something doesn't have a deep rooted meaning you can find and analyses, it is childish. The number of things that, then, are "grown up" are robotic and boring and definately things I don't desire to do. (Read the newspaper and do the word puzzle, for example, is a grown up thing... But god forbid I take part in model airplaning) It just seems like spaceisptettybig's definition of "grown up" is finding joy in boring, tasteless things. I don't feel that "growing up" means giving up on the unreal and I don't think that grown ups have to give up their fantasy worlds in order to be considered grown up. ----- PS: something I have learned in psychology, humans advance forward but don't leve behind what they already had. I will use morals as an example Preconventional morals: I only care about how it efrects me. Babies have this Conventional morals: I understand my actions can effet other people. Most people have this after the age of 7 Post conventional morals: this is absolutely right and this is absolutely wrong. Not everyone reaches this stage of moral development. ^^^first day in class we were told that there is a almost infinite truth with this. Because we reach the stage of conventional morals, we don't lose our pre conventional morals. We keep them alongside our new found morals. Why did I bother saying this? Simple, because in the same sense, just because you find more "adult" interests, it doesn't mean you give up you "childish" ones. The world of fantasy isn't a child's only place, like a ball pit is (which is only a child's only place because the signs in front say not to go in.) And, people, just a heads up... I don't like twilight, but if it calls for examination just from its existence.. If it means something to a very large group of people (children and adults alike) then, yes, it is a "mature" book by the definition presented here. A definition I am not fond of. And, before someone rages at me... A topic if maturity is in fact in like with the subject matter of this thread. _any mistakes or oddities in my post are from autocorrect_ |
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Post by Hellbreaker on Oct 22, 2012 12:13:13 GMT
I'll just pop in and say that "maturity" is knowing that it's fine to be a childish fool. Many reasons we actually develop are childish in and of themselves, being based in curiosity and comfort.
As an example, the idea behind science, any kind of science, is childish. And I don't believe physics is considered an immature subject, is it?
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Oct 22, 2012 22:29:31 GMT
The thing that irks me is that, and the reason i am posting is exactly this, is that "immature" is being defined. "nothing grown up about" ("childish") is defined by the idea that something is childish because it is
A) Not realistic
B) Doesn't make you think about it within itself
It doesn't have to be both. No it has to be either one or the other and by this definition it is immature.
Twilight is immature because... Well it't not real. And the story, while people can relate to and enjoy, doesn't make you think about life, the universe, and the meaning of those 2 things. Rather, it calls into question why we, as a society, enjoy a story about a teenage girl who falls into an abusive doomed relationship, has a chance to be with someone better and someone who can make her happy but chooses to continue to keep with the abusive twisted relationship.
Why the hell is a story like twilight popular? Well, that is something to call into question. (Also, vampires, sex, violence, and the promotion of such things are all very controversial... which is why I brought up a link to a list of ban books... it was ban for the soul reason it was controversial. Controversial =/= mature)
Huck Finn was just plain inappropriate when it was written. A black man... and a white boy... getting along? And the black man *isn't* portrayed as a monster? In the book itself, it calls for external analysis, not internal story suggestions. Why is it that isn't something we can do with twilight, and why is twilight immature but Huck Finn isn't?
I just question the idea maturity can be defined so easily, ignoring the fact that there are other perspectives and definitions of such. That there are personal ideas of what is mature and what isn't
case and point, because hellbreakers definition of maturity directly contradicts the one in the second page of the thread.
I didn't initially try to compare twilight to Huck finn. Honestly the comparison isn't what is important. What is important is the fact that Huck Finn is defined as a mature book for the same reason that Twilight is considered an immature one.
Is baseball less of a mature thing to do when you are in high school than you are in college or in the pros?
I want to know what about 40k fluff is "immature". It is hard for me to imagine an actual reason that makes sense to be presented.
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