Are Genestealers vehicle hunters now?

[rpricew]

Title says it all...

The thought occurred to me that with all of the changes to assaults in 6th edition a lot of people who used to run Genestealer heavy armies are finding them less effective. Overwatch, AP5 weaponry, Cover 5+, random charge distances make the Genestealer much less effective against infantry, especially if your enemy is hiding in cover.

But what about vehicles? Take your Marine Standard Rhino with 11,11,10. This guy only has 2 fire points, which means only 2 snapshots from the embarked unit inside. It also is at the most WS1 (edited) if it moved in the previous turn. It's harder to hide in terrain, since it risks the Dangerous Terrain test.

Take a 7 man unit of regular Genestealers. Give them Adrenal Glands and now you have an average of 4.666 hull points removed on the turn they charge. That's an excellent chance of wrecking the vehicle. Unfortunately, that's also an excellent chance of exploding the vehicle, therefore killing some of your Genestealers in the resulting explosion.

5 Genestealers will average 3.333 hull points removed, with only 1-2 of those being penetrating hits.

Maybe we have been thinking of this all wrong... maybe the Genestealer isn't necessarily "NERFED" as bad as we were led to believe with the changes. Albeit, compared in a void to assaulting infantry, it could be, but now against vehicles, they offer a simple but efficient means to take out those enemy vehicles.

Plus with the new FAQ rulings, the occupants cannot launch an assault their next turn once their vehicle is wrecked. If they're stunned, they can only snapshot, and with proper placement and cunning efficiency the 85 point, 5 man Brood of Genestealers holding the backfield objective just became the worst nightmare for the Vendetta that had to hover to drop off their cargo of Line Breaking Veterans.

These are just my thoughts and I haven't field tested this yet... however after next weekend's Tournament, I may try it. Some of you that are already running Genestealers, I would love to hear if this thought has validity.

[wisdomseyes1]

A quick correction, vehicles are WS1 when they move, regardless of how far they move (important because WS3 means gants hit on 4's, when in reality they hit on 3's)

Now, realize exactly what you are saying. 5 genestealers. That... doesnt last very long at all. I know this because 24 hormagaunts last 1 turn of shooting. Genestealers ARE nerfed, and not just because assault is a bit iffy and random now, but because they are slower. Far slower. Outflanking was their biggest move, giving them such threat value just being in reserves people would avoid the edges altogether.

They could be great, but I dont think they will last all that long from shooting.

[halos]

An interesting idea, but I think it's unlikely you will see Av10 vehicles moving towards the enemy any more; they are significantly weaker and can no longer claim objectives with a last ditch effort.

Not to mention that a brood of AG gants can also break open an AV10 vehicle with no danger of forcing an explosion as well as being significantly more expendable and making a decent screen for more important units.

[zephoid]

halos hit the nail on the head. Pens are bad. gaunts only glance, but get more attacks, can surround a vehicle better, and are generally a better investment. Rending was always an anti-inf weapon

[rpricew]

all very good replies, the only downside to using Gants in this way is that they have to be tended to by a Synapse creature, which increases the base cost of the Gant squad.

In just my last game, I was advancing across the board taking on an IG gunline, and sure enough, here comes the Vendetta dropping off a unit in the backfield to take my home objective and score a linebreaker.

I didn't have any Genestealers, but I did have Termagants holding my objective. The Vets cleared off the unit, they broke and ran off the board. I had to turn my Tervigon around and spawn a unit of Gants to run back and take care of business.

My point being, I needed the Tervigon up field to do something else. Not turning around to babysit. I had to invest 220 points of units that to do something that a 100 point unit of Genestealers could have accomplished.

In addition, after the Vets cleared the objective, there wasn't anything left to take care of the Vendetta. It just drove off to harass my other units.

@ Wisdomeyes1: I'm not claiming that the Genestealer didn't take a hit, it did! I'm just saying maybe their role has evolved and they might find a new way to contribute that we haven't thought of. Instead of just writing them off, what if we could come up with a better way?

@ Halos: You're right, I haven't seen any Rhinos or Chimeras coming across the field. I have seen lots of flyers coming and dropping off troops in my backfield though.

The idea is: If we haven't thought to leave a nasty surprise in our backfield for our enemy, then he probably hasn't thought we would do it either. Sure it's possible for them to get shot to pieces. But it's also possible for them to run out and ruin someone's day with their added strength. Their problem is durability.

[l0rdf1end]

Who ever says Genestealers got nerfed badly are wrong.
They lost the ability to Outflank and charge when coming on.

LOS with Broodlord now introduces more survivability.
I am suprised to see my squads of 5-6 make it across the board and into combat.

I loose more Stealers from charging into difficult terrain than I do from shooting.

I've had many games where Stealers just rip through tank after tank.
5 attacks on the charge with a Str 5 Broodlord plus genestealers gives you good odds to do those 3 hull points.

Other options you could consider are devil gaunts in a well placed droped spore, 15 of these dudes punping out 45 shots into rear armour does the trick, getting placement can be a problem.

Otherwise Gargoyles with AG are a reasonable option.

[Davor]

Very well done Rpricew. I will try this out. Not shure how it will work out, I still suck at playing 40K, but at least it's something different. Main point is, people will be thinking, that Stealers got Nerfed, and will be wondering, why they are not attacking. Again, good mind games to be had. Also don't tell your opponent what you are tryinmg to do, so if it doesn't work the first game, it can work the next game or so.

[Threeshades]

People need to get it out of their head that random charge distances make charging less effective. It actually makes it more effective, the average charge is one inch further than it used to be with only a small probability to actually get a distance smaller than before, and an equal chance to get EVEN more. The rolling just replaced the guessing now that you can pre-measure everything.

What really hurt genestealers is that they can't charge the turn they arrive on the battlefield so no matter how you deploy them you will have to endure one enemy shooting phase at least before you can charge. But when they charge they are no less deadly than before.

[engangsgrill]

While you have a minor point with pre-measuring, the introduction of random charges have made them unreliable (them being charges in general. You are spot on on the genestealers). Keep in mind that any charge distance above what you need is useless. If I need to charge 6", rolling 12 isn't going to improve my charge.

Basically it's like this:

Charge Range	Success chance before	Success chance now
1	100%	100%
2	100%	100%
3	100%	97%
4	100%	92%
5	100%	83%
6	100%	72%
7	0	58%
8	0	42%
9	0	28%
10	0	17%
11	0	8%
12	0	3%

Before I could reliably charge between 5 and 6" with trained eye measurement. Now I will fail almost 1 in 5 5" charges, and almost 1 in 3 6" charges. Charging 7" is almost fifty-fifty, and above that you have the odds stacked against you. Trying for 9" or more is just giving your opponent free snapshots.

In my opinion 4" is the longest reliable charge distance now, against between 5 and 6" before. Not an improvement.

[ravengoescaw]

I personaly almost always used genestealers as Anti-tank. After tanks get mopped up, then charged them into the biggest inf unit within reach. Now I have dropped them from my list because they just don't seem to me to be worth the points, with gaunts being able to kill tanks. Their only use I think is infiltrate to get your opponent on their heels early, then you got to build the rest of your list to keep him there, which for many reasons is hard to do.

[wisdomseyes1]

Sept 16, 2012 19:13:35 GMT l0rdf1end said:

Who ever says Genestealers got nerfed badly are wrong.
They lost the ability to Outflank and charge when coming on.

LOS with Broodlord now introduces more survivability.
I am suprised to see my squads of 5-6 make it across the board and into combat.

I loose more Stealers from charging into difficult terrain than I do from shooting.

I've had many games where Stealers just rip through tank after tank.
5 attacks on the charge with a Str 5 Broodlord plus genestealers gives you good odds to do those 3 hull points.

Other options you could consider are devil gaunts in a well placed droped spore, 15 of these dudes punping out 45 shots into rear armour does the trick, getting placement can be a problem.

Otherwise Gargoyles with AG are a reasonable option.

This is also sort of at Threeshades because of his random charge comment.

Genestealers DID get nerfed, and more than just the loss of Outflanking (which, despite what you might think, is huge)

Random charge distances IS quite annoying. No, it isnt because genestealers are slower, its because everything else is faster. Like, just as fast as them. When I see tactical marines make a 8-9" charge, I feel VERY annoyed. But more than that, when termagants are failing their 6" charges (which, here is where it is relevant to Threeshades, non-fleet units fail their charge from last edition a little less than half the time.) it does change the assault quite a bit.

Overwatch exists. Is this always relevant? No. But even when needing 6's, AP5 weapons are lethal to genestealers, especially in units as small as we are suggesting right now.

And wound allocation is front models, which means that every wound is another inch away from the enemy.

Genestealers got hit. They arent unusable, but they arent what they were and honestly, dont strike the same fear in enemies hearts anymore. Null deployment wont be the same without them...


Actually, I wonder how cordump adjusted to no more outflank assault moves... Swarmlord took a hit in that regard as well.

[l0rdf1end]

wisdomseyes1, where as I'm talking from experience having actually played them in 5th and in 6th, Have you actually played them to make these comments?

When looking at random charge distances when it comes to genestealers you also need to factor in the fleet rerolls.

A lot of what you say comes from your own theory and opinion.
Facts should come from experience and not onesided judgements.

I don't see the point in adding information to a forum unless its fact/confirmed/play tested.
Otherwise you just end up watering down a great forum of great advice into unreliable information.
One reason why I tend to ignore your posts, not much is backed up by acutal play testing and its always very one sided and opinionated.

The reason I signed up to this forum is because the main guys here no their stuff and give very sound advice.

[Lanesend]

The biggest problem with Stealers now is they get shot up one turn before reaching assault.

That's why I don't use them as shock troops anymore, but as objective sitters. I'm not saying that they should actually be sitting on an objective from turn one, but they should hide (preferably out of LOS) near an (your own) objective.

Everything that comes over the table can usually be intercepted by the swarm, but those outflankers and deep strikers threatening your objective will have to think twice if there's a Broodlord with a couple of stealers around the corner. Especially when you get a chance to Enfeeble or OM such a unit.
Even armor is not safe, because of the rending claws.

Now I don't play in a very hard environment (lots of veteran gamers with 15+ years of 40K, but no-spam lists at all) , so I don't know how it will work on tournaments, but I have had great succes with camping stealers.

The only downside is, well, they're camping stealers. Not quite what you expect from uber-assault troops.

[infornography]

I don't see them being very point efficient as objective campers. They are not much more durable than termagants out in the open and cost nearly 3 times as much. Many times more than that with the BL.

Just doesn't strike me as a good use of points.

[Lanesend]

^ I think the reason why it worked for me is that I keep the unit smallish and out of LOS (we do play with a lot of ruins).

I think it works, because my opponents don't dedicate enough to kill the unit. Because the unit consists of only eight models, my opponents only send one unit of terminators or scouts to deal with it.

Until now I saved an objective with this BL squad from scout squads, a terminator squad, a Blood Claw squad, and some vets dropped by a valkyrie.
OM really helps with overwatch here.

My point is, stealers are still as good as they were in fifth in terms of killyness. It's just a lot more difficult to keep them alive until combat.
When I use them near my backfield objective, they don't get shot up so much as when advancing. And sooner or later, my opponents will try to reach that objective.

It's the combination of not needing synapse, killing power, and being a scoring unit that works for me.