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Post by coredump on Sept 17, 2012 13:48:18 GMT
The logic behind using them for objectives, is their ability to defend.
Drop 10 gaunts on an objective, and you get the points. But if a tac squad shows up, those gaunts are dead and the objective lost.
Leave some stealers there instead, and they can take out the tac squad and keep the objective.
Of course, if that Tac squad never shows up, you 'wasted' those extra points on stealers where gaunts would have worked. Decisions...decisions....
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Post by zephoid on Sept 17, 2012 13:50:25 GMT
l0rdf1end, Dont assume any of us are basing our experience off what we have heard. Also, dont assume the general opinion is wrong just because your opponents are poor judges of target priority. Most of us play multiple armies and playing against tyranids is as good of a learning experience as playing with them. LOS does not make a genestealer squad any more durable. It follows mixed save unit rules and therefore the LOS is before wounds are assigned. Therefore it still takes 11 AP5 wounds or 8 AP4- wounds to kill a 5 man squad+ broodlord. A 10 man MEQ squad could do 7 wounds which would kill 3 stealers and put 2 on the broodlord (pretty good chance of the broodlord dying too). Thats enough to put that squad down to less than combat operational. Overwatch would stand a good chance of killing them if not the swings back. Against vehicles they do ~2 hp if you round up. 5 genestealers+broodlord is 150 points For that cost, grab 3 hive guard for popping vehicles. Dont complain that a tervigon has to babysit. At 150 points you are already putting yourself into the cost range of a tervigon. Then you really only need 1 tervigon for 2-3 termigaunt squads on objectives if you keep powers (18" synapse bubble). Genestealers get shot off objectives by just about anything that can deepstrike(no LOS here too since they can chose side) or shoot long range. Dont count on them being able to survive. Heck, even warriors work if you are spending 150 points on backfield holders. Almost nothing that shows up is going to be able to take on warriors minus lots of S8+, warriors get decent overwatch, and they will be busy shooting at your tervigons with missiles or better anyways. Genestealers were never primary vehicle killers in any prior edition. Even 3rd when you could get S6 on the charge. They always had the option of killing vehicles but that was always a utility feature rather than a reason to take them. Still applies. However, since they are now pretty terrible at killing inf for their point cost, they should not be taken unless in small quantities. My genestealer hive will be sitting in boxes waiting for a new codex.
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Post by drakiskier on Sept 17, 2012 14:41:42 GMT
i find Ygmarls got a buff this edition, what with being one of the few units that CAN assault when coming out of reserves. a squad fo 8 ymgarls popping out of a terrain piece, moving and then charging always dampens someones day... and they still have rending, so can break vehicles too.
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Post by Psychichobo on Sept 17, 2012 20:05:43 GMT
The thing is though, the difference between Genestealers and Ymgarls is very significant in this edition. Ymgarls before were often treated essentially like Stealers that turned up in significantly more annoying places - now they're one of a select few that can do this, assault on that turn, and even use their toughness boost against Overwatch.
Not having a go at you drakiskier, it's just that right now we're trying to work out what to do with these bleedin' regular genestealers.
I think we could've survived not being able to assault from outflanking IF we had prevalent 4+ cover - which we no longer do. That really is a nail in their coffin, as they can and will fall easily to Bolter-standard shooting, and if the enemy is in cover it's not just overwatch you have to worry about but striking last too.
It's like being back in 4th edition - but against 5th edition codexes. And in the 4th ed dex we could at least have had a 4+ save on them...
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Sept 17, 2012 21:47:52 GMT
I played them in 5th. Played broodlord commandos in 6th, hated them with a fury passion and yes they died in all the games I tried with them save the game I used invisibility on the broodlord (and we all know why that doesn't work, but I didn't know at the time) I don't ever just pull (please do not swear) out of I strongly disagree. The only models in the tyranid codec I haven't actually used are as follows: OOE (who I technically used once when I was new and thought I was being pro...) parasite of mortex, pyrovores, and spore mines (again, I used them... But because that's what "pro" people knew how to use correctly) Look at my post more carefully. How can something be an opinion without any experience with it? At that people its no lomger an opinion but me spouting out math and "this makes sense". I dont use genestealers because they are expensove versions of units I dont particularly like, keyed around an offensive role where I prefer troops to have a defensive one,. Leave some stealers there instead, and they can take out the tac squad and keep the objective. Of course, if that Tac squad never shows up, you 'wasted' those extra points on stealers where gaunts would have worked. Decisions...decisions.... And from what I have seen, tact squads dont usually move across the board. They like holding objectives and shooting. That's just assuming nornal marines... but then... there really isnt such a thing as normal marines anymore is there. i find Ygmarls got a buff this edition, what with being one of the few units that CAN assault when coming out of reserves. a squad fo 8 ymgarls popping out of a terrain piece, moving and then charging always dampens someones day... and they still have rending, so can break vehicles too. That is a similar statement to saying Shadow in the Warp was buffed. Its the exact same it has always been, its just everything else got worse and it stayed the same. I wouldnt call that "buffing" but it does have the same effect. And as much as a hate genestealers, I will say I do enjoy Y genestealers. Though, I would replace them with hive guard or zoanthrope buff units any day.
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Post by coredump on Sept 17, 2012 23:18:25 GMT
There is just no way around it, stealers got nerfed.
I have detailed most of this numerous times, but mostly when 6th first came out.
Going from d6+6 to 2d6(reroll) is a big nerf, in many ways. First, average goes from 9.5 to 7 It goes from a minimum of 7 to a minimum of 2
But worst of all, there is no chance to adjust. You used to be able to move out of cover, then roll Run, if you roll poorly, you can move elsewhere. Now you move, and if you roll poorly... you are just stuck.
Random rolls also hurt. It will be pretty rare that you will ever need, or benefit, from a 9+ roll, even 8" will be uncommon. But those rolls of 3-4" will almost always leave you hurting, and even with Fleet, it isn't all that hard to miss a 6-7" charge. (remember, previous *minimum* was 7") And each time you miss... it leaves you open to shooting, and no chance to run for cover.
Overwatch: A simple tac squad will take out 1-2 stealers... this just adds to the problem from no grenades; so now it is pretty easy to lose 2-4 models between declaring the charge, and getting to swing. And even if you fail that random roll, you still take Overwatch hits.
Front to back Wound allocation: That 6" charge isn't too bad, until you lose a model or two from OW, and now have to roll an 8+
Most of this hits stealers more than other units, they are not as resilient as TMCs or even warriors, and much more expensive than gaunts.
Fleet has been nerfed. While a Fleet unit is still a bit faster than a normal unit, the difference is a lot less than it used to be.
Now, BLords got better; possibly a lot better. The question is if they are worth taking with the now sub-par stealers.
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Post by rpricew on Sept 18, 2012 0:36:32 GMT
I'm not trying to say that stealers didn't get as big of a Nerf as we think they did. Let's all agree from this point on that they did get a Nerf compared to how they were used in 5th... now, different topic of this thread!
I should stress; what CAN they do? After playing a bunch of games in 6th with regular Ymgarls making every list, I noticed that they excelled at destroying tanks. Taking an 8 man unit and coming out of cover usually meant 1-2 dead vehicles depending on rolls. But it was always one vehicle at a minimum. (except Land Raiders/Monoliths of course)
This 8 man unit usually arrives on turn 2, because of Hive Commander, and at that point in the game my enemy is usually still camped up in their vehicles or hiding behind a wall of armor 10-11 tanks. Downside of the 8 man unit is that they cause too many chances of an explosion. Smaller units or multiple assaults almost never seem to cause an explosion...
My backfield at the time consists of usually 2 Tervigons, 2 units of Termagants and maybe a Trygon. As the game goes on I am spawning Termagants and moving up to take the center of the Battlefield with the Tervigons. My backfield objectives are usually controlled by Termagants.
In several games the same thing happens. A unit of "X" comes in via Deep Strike, Flyer, Drop Pod or whatever behind my lines and cleans off my objective. More than once, I've had to turn around and go back to take care of this threat. Termagants do a good job as long as there is a 200 point Tervigon there to back them up. But when they are alone...they die and run away most of the time.
However, the vehicle that arrives with these units, invariably continues to harass my poor Termgants causing me to continue to dedicate my Tervigon to babysitting duty.
Now, factor in the efficiency that your Ymgarls show in knocking out vehicles, and the relative cheapness of a 5-6 man unit of Genestealers with only Toxin Sacs roughly 85 points for 5. And it makes me wonder, would the Genestealers do a better job of defending the backfield?
They wouldn't need to operate under synapse, they are leadership 10, they can go to ground for 4+ cover save (3+ in ruins), which means they can still react if they are assaulted... and they are very deadly in CC if somebody decides to wade into combat with them, usually swinging first.
Of course, a savvy opponent might decide that he needs to focus fire on the Genestealers with his Flyer to eliminate the threat before dropping off his cargo, or maybe they come equipped with Flamers and you're just going to die with them. But hey, what in our codex can sit in terrain and withstand that kind of Firepower other than the Tervigon itself.
But to me that seems like a waste of the Tervigon's potential, since at a minimum that's 210 (160 Tervigon + 50 points for Termagants) with no upgrades. Could we get by with a cheaper version of backfield defense like a couple of small Genestealer units? Of course if I was going to dedicate 210 points to backfield defense...then maybe the Tervigon would be the answer.
I'm just trying to speculate until I can get some games in. This is all based on how awesome the Ymgarls do when they arrive. I always take the +1 Strength when attacking vehicles and it never lets me down.
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Post by infornography on Sept 18, 2012 1:08:30 GMT
The cheaper defense is termagants. Hell even devilgants are cheaper than genestealers and they have a fairly nasty overwatch.
Ymgarls can pop tanks with rear armor 10 pretty reliably. Regular genestealers were not as reliable but could still do it when they could sneak up on them.
I've run through several scenarios and at least against my usual opponents I can't find a role for the old genestealers that make them at all worth their points. I've cut them from my lists. I still love my Ymgarls, but I've moved toward taking biovores and other interesting units I never bothered with before 6th instead.
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Post by coredump on Sept 18, 2012 2:05:27 GMT
I hear you. But one quick clarification. When I talk about them being nerfed, my message is not just in comparison, it is a way of demonstrating that they are a kind of poor unit now.
That said, it may be possible to find a niche that they work in, or an army build that is designed to exploit what they can do well.
To wit: Holding back field objectives.
Yes, they will be better than gaunts. But the question is if they will be good enough to matter.
Lets say you have those 5 TS stealers, and lets say they are even in cover.
A tac squad lands in a Dpod. 20 shots, 14 hits, 7 wounds, 4 dead stealers...... Or perhaps you GtG, and only lose 2 stealers. They just wait and shoot you again next turn, then assault Or a flyer comes by, kills a few stealers, then drops off a unit that shoots some more of them.
To make this work, you need enough stealers that they can lose several, and still be a viable fighting force. Which means you are now talking 8-10 stealers, not 5.
Stealers would be fairly effective, however, in holding an objective against straight foot units.
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Post by rpricew on Sept 18, 2012 2:16:51 GMT
@ Coredump: As usual, you preach the gospel... LOL
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Post by coredump on Sept 18, 2012 3:42:54 GMT
Now, if you can find a way to keep them protected, perhaps in a bastion or something.....
But now you are dealing with a lot of points.....
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Post by N.I.B. on Sept 18, 2012 7:00:14 GMT
Shouldn't this be in tactics? We're discussing tactical uses, after all.
Normal Genestealers are dead for me in 6th ed, more or less.
I haven't had a chance to play as much as I'd like this summer, would really like to give the Ymgarls a solid test run in 6th ed. Their problem is pretty much the same as it was in 5th ed - they compete with our best ranged anti-tank, Hive Guards. And I usually struggle to fit everything I feel I need within the point limits.
In 6th ed you need speed/disruption and durable scoring elements, 3 decked out Tervigons fills the 'durable scoring' requirement for me. That leaves me the choice of going either for speed or disruption. Either Flyrants or Ymgarls. I would like to test something like this:
Hive Tyrant - Hive Commander, Old Adversary, 2+ save, regeneration, 2 TL Devourers Tyrant Guard - Lashwhip
10 Ymgarls 10 Ymgarls 10 Ymgarls
10 Termagants 10 Termagants 10 Termagants Tervigon - AG, TS, Crusching Claws, 3 powers Tervigon - AG, TS, Crusching Claws, 3 powers Tervigon - AG, TS, Crusching Claws, 3 powers
13 Gargoyles
1998 points
Take the first turn if I can to run forward and get the biomancy blessings up, take the shooting on the chin and turn 2 the poop starts hitting the fan with potentially 30 Ymgarls and a (please do not swear) load of spawned Gants with up to 24.99" charges.
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Post by DukeMantis on Sept 18, 2012 9:21:52 GMT
I have alot of stealers, but after some detailed research im sticking to a unit of Yealers for now, who will be jumping the enemies pretty elite units or heavy weapons teams early in the game. Im keeping the unit smallish, as i feel they can be a hard hitting unit with relatively small cost in points compared to other armies hammers. If i was going to use regular stealers in 6th it would just be in a fluffy non competetive game... and i would go likely for two sizeable units with broodlords and a maybe even a flak screen to be sure of arriving at combat effectiveness. Ive seen many well reasoned opinions on optimal ways to use this unit now, but whether your a Stealer guy or a Yealer guy or someone who doesnt use them at all... it seems to me what the rest of your army is doing in concert with them, and lucky dice will have the main impact on there success. I will be using trygons and devilgaunts to go after tanks... Dont worry oldskool stealer lovers they are probably still boss in space hulk!
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Post by N.I.B. on Sept 18, 2012 12:31:07 GMT
Ive seen many well reasoned opinions on optimal ways to use this unit now, but whether your a Stealer guy or a Yealer guy or someone who doesnt use them at all... it seems to me what the rest of your army is doing in concert with them, and lucky dice will have the main impact on there success. I will be using trygons and devilgaunts to go after tanks... I don't want anything to do with lucky dice, if you understand what I'm saying. The more control (the less random factors) you have over your army, the better. And you don't take Ymgarls primarily for synergy effects (although it's nice when you are able to buff them with Furious Charge or FNP) you take them mostly because they are a very good standalone unit - they don't take IB tests and have high Ld. They arrive on 2+ and they don't scatter. Plus, they affect your opponents' game already from deployment. Btw, Devilgants suck as tank hunters, unless you can compel your opponent to turn his rears to them.
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Post by infornography on Sept 18, 2012 12:48:36 GMT
My tank hunters are my monstrous creatures. Two CC Tervigons, a Trygon, a Flyrant, and Swarmlord make short order of any vehicle they come across. If need be I will hit vehicles with my Ymgarls as well.
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