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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Aug 10, 2012 5:39:47 GMT
This is erroneous. The 6th damage chart is pretty much the 5th damage chart -1. AP2 just means dead vehicle damage results on 5 & 6, which was is the same on the 5e unmodified chart (yeah yeah 5 was a wreck, who cares). In other words, AP1 and AP2 have the same chance to get a dead vehicle pen result as they did in 5th, now AP3 or worse rolls on the chart as if they had a -1 on the old 5th chart (with the exception that 1 gives you a result now). Already been covered and I admitted my mistake. |
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Post by Jabberwocky on Aug 10, 2012 7:51:20 GMT
Exploding a transport from range, especially against T3 armies, is a lot better than the old wreck though. Against IG/5 man dire avengers, that'll often break the unit too.
Overall though 3 results guaranteeing a wreck is the single biggest improvement for us.
I don't really see why people are still arguing. Local meta is just that. Local. It will be different for everyone. All that is universal is that you now can realistically kill 10+ vehicles in a single game, whereas before you couldn't.
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Post by creep on Aug 10, 2012 10:31:34 GMT
I dont have time right now to deal with all the good thoughts and the garbage cause I have to get stuff for a weekend full of party now.
Just some stuff to keep you all going.
MSU is fine
Spacewolves got trashed which where kind of our arch enemy and are now lulz.
Im utterly shocked how so many words can say so little especially if someone includes "wisdom" in his name. Sorry I seem to fail to find even one satisfying valid argument in your posts. All I see is "I am so offended and I take tha stuff you say personal so look how awesome my awesomeness is" it bores me... I have not the slightest interest in offending you cuase it would waste my time. I just think its annoying to read stuff thats neither sarcastic, fun or thought trough until the end.
I bet you could bring a valid argument in lets say five sentences which will satisfy me, and please take something general not some out of the context stuff. Please feel free to try me.
Local meta is different for anybody guys, so it still doesn't count as an argument. There is no point to discuss it here.... make your own tread if you want to.
Im tired, still drunk and have to fetch my stuff now so if you would excuse me gents
see you Sunday
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Post by Lanesend on Aug 10, 2012 14:15:25 GMT
You know, I was about to post something normal in this thread, but as you are still drunk, I'll refrain from it. Do the bunnies in your reality (the ones with the horns on their heads) also ride in Rhino's and/or Chimera's? It would make a fantastic zoo.  |
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Aug 10, 2012 15:10:05 GMT
You know, I was about to post something normal in this thread, but as you are still drunk, I'll refrain from it. I'm not as good as you... Ill have to say something normal. Did mech get better or worse creep? Did mech get easier or harder to deal with? Did mech get any boons in this edition? In order: worse, easier, very few. I can't think of one post where someone said people don't use mech anymore. I can think of thousands where people have said mech is garbage now (termagants are garbage too) Do I agree with the idea mech is garbage? No. Your original post includes how noone is considering fliers as mech, but fliers are so different from most vehicles it's not fair to put them in the same category (similarly, someone brought up dark eldar vehicles not changing because they have always been garbage) As some else has said, it's not mech that's dead. It's the parking lot. It's the idea you can get a 35 point model and be satisfied knowing tht it will take a lot of firepower from the opponent to deal with that is dead. It's the idea that one of our models can destroy enemy vehicles on average, and not have to worry that the tank is on top of an objective. If your going to sit there an pretend that hull points havent greatly increased our chances of dealing with mech I really have nothing more to say. You can sit there in your fantasy world along with the rest of the forums who say that Tyranids suck and you should never play them because they cant win tournaments. I'm not the only one posting but you seem to focus on me... And I'm not the only one sayin the exact same thing as everyone else. But I do appreciate the attention. I haven't one a NOVA, but maybe when you do I'll respect your opinion a bit more, until then, try to be a bit more open minded  I have said it 3 times now, and I shall say it again. I am no nationals player. Neither is anyone here though, including yourself. Not really if your not winnig (how far I'd actually go I am not sure, haven't tried. No money) Maybe when your sober you can put up some valid reasons mech spam is a viable tactic I should be scared of. And please don't say "because it's hard to kill", it isn't. We have weapons we put in our army list ON PURPOSE to kill tanks. We put weapons in the list that are MADE to deal with them. I don't expect infantry fire to glance a vehicle to deal every time (unless it's tau or necrons) We still prepare for vehicles in our lists, we just don't have to include 9 hive guard, who won't do much past killing transports (obviously they are still a great idea, 150 points for 6 s8 shots ignores cover on 3 2w t6 models, they are still my favorite elite choice) Vehicles aren't indestructible. There is little reason to spam them if they aren't 35 point scoring units that don't die without volumes of anti tank fire. I know people are still using vehicles. I see it all the time. But... When I said "I laugh when I see a vehicle on the board" I meant it... They don't do much anymore. And maybe that's me being a hardened child from the broken streets of 5th edition, I don't know. I just know the game if a lot less enjoyable when your winning rate skyrockets for no reason for 30 something games (likely because people feel Tyranids still cant deal with mech) and it wasn't fun last edition either, when half of the armies where the same models with slightly different variations, all of them being armor values and no wounds. Valid and sober responses are appreciated, thank you. |
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Post by voraciousapathy on Aug 10, 2012 15:23:32 GMT
Yeah. I used to know people who pretended to be older than they were on the internet. They made use of affectations of seniority and cynicism, and tried to sound like they had a clue. Let me break it down for you, "Creep": Perhaps, in whatever hole you crawled out of, you're a pretty big deal. Unfortunately, calling yourself (and misspelling) a "soceopath" and dismissing every argument you can't wrap your pathetic, pedantic grey matter around (probably due to huffing paint, or having breath-holding contests with your cool adult friends who are all drunk and wearing sunglasses all the time because this is the internet) sort of exposes you for what you truly are: 15 years old, posting on your dad's work computer, while wearing your mom's clothes. Look, genetrash: transports aren't indestructible, and anything with 12 S4 bodies in melee can kill one on the charge pretty reliably. This is compared to 200 S4 attacks landing 33 hits, 6.2 Glances, and 1 Immobilized result on a vehicle which moved 6.1'' in 5e. Pay attention here, you filthy, miserable reminder of humanity's most wretched echelon, because this is math. Reality. Now, I know your predominantly prosimian brain can barely maintain coherency long enough to secure your next flake of wall candy, but try to keep focused for a second, 'cause this next part is important: It takes less than 5% of the number of S4 attacks to IMMOBILIZE a vehicle in melee in 5th Edition, to KILL the same vehicle in 6e. Do you understand? Or are you too high on Robitussin to get a clue? Come on, champ, you can do it! What this means is, 12 Gants with Furious Charge can kill a Rhino on the move, whereas it used to require over 100 of the same Gants to IMMOBILIZE one. How’s that? That’ll work in EVERYONE’S meta, and not just at the high profile tournaments that you get tabled at, you loathsome, half-witted little pissant.  |
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Post by demoric on Aug 10, 2012 15:48:13 GMT
Vehicles still block LOS and increase movement, provide some heavy weapons at a cheap cost, and can now can't be stun-locked. The downside is they lost their staying ability.
There is still viable tactics to be used with them, however spamming vehicles and staying in parking lots aren't viable tactics anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2012 15:59:54 GMT
We don't need insults to debate guys, this is the Hive. Not the Imperium.
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Post by bloodborne on Aug 10, 2012 16:43:48 GMT
voracious: ^^^ THAT was an amusing read... I may not have been running nids in 5th, But parking lots were still hell for me, in the local meta I was playing at, the only person that could reliably take them on was the Daemons player, that said, he had a very beastly army, it's likely even worse to deal with now. creep: I'm going to ATTEMPT civility here. Echoing the words of others on here, no one has said that mech lists are no longer viable, they are saying that now in the current state of the meta, they are less effective, and we (as an army) have more than one option to take DTTs and vehicles in general, off the board. That they can't score or contest, and that we can finally reliably deal with them, are what people are saying. Mech can still be a problem, death-by-pieplate IG lists I know are never going to go away, much the same as any other heavy armor lists or armies that DTTs are integral to how they play (Tau most specifically). @wisdom: Methinks your words are lost here friend, considering he has decidedly dismissed anything you say, no worries though, the rest of us still listen to you...
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Aug 10, 2012 17:29:07 GMT
We don't need insults to debate guys, this is the Hive. Not the Imperium. It's VA. That's his way of showing affection. Pretty much. They don't increase movement as much as they did last edition, but other than that, yea. |
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Post by voraciousapathy on Aug 10, 2012 17:42:08 GMT
We don't need insults to debate guys, this is the Hive. Not the Imperium. Sorry. I'm still drunk. Gents.  |
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Post by Edzilla on Aug 10, 2012 17:50:13 GMT
You know I knew as soon as Creep mentioned Stelek, VA would open up a can of woop ass on him
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Post by coredump on Aug 10, 2012 21:07:36 GMT
Okay folks... Let's play nice....
But I will say it, mech is dead.
Doesn't mean all vehicles will disappear... But using them as a mainstay of most army lists are a thing of the past.
If this thread is still going later I will expound on why I think that.
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Post by scrotatohead on Aug 10, 2012 22:00:17 GMT
Those in my local gaming group are either too new to the game, or simply don't have the cash, to go vehicle crazy. As a result I've never had to experience a bone fide parking lot like what I've read about so often on the various boards. I can only imagine how frustrating a veritable Rubiks Cube of vehicles advancing as a solid block would be to play against. That the rules of previous editions would make this absurdity a viable playing style just makes me scratch my head. I had enough trouble arguing with players who felt that their landraider, positioned right up against the side of a ruin, could pivot in place and drive away from the building at a 90-degree angle from it's starting position. I know this is a fantasy game with a (please do not swear) load of imagination required, BUT THAT'S JUST NOT RIGHT! And the idea of nine or more vehicles rolling across no-man's land in lock step, tread to tread, side brushing side, just makes me gnash my teeth.
So I'm quite pleased that the changes in 6th have taken the wind out of the tactic and replaced it with more, dare I say it, realistic profiles for armor. Staying in a block is now suicide due to the changes, and well it should be.
Seems to me that fundamentally, the various rules changes are meant to encourage and promote the combined arms approach to list buildling. Hell, it even makes sense to take artillery pieces now. Yes, flyers are WAAC, but GW needs to sell those models before they give us a means of taking them out. Meqh isn't going away, it's just going to be played differently.
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Post by paxmiles on Aug 11, 2012 0:05:05 GMT
Light mech is certainly less durable than it was. Chimera or DE lance spam lists should still function without issue. Big issue for light vehicle spam is the changes to plast weapons, which no longer need to get the center hole for full damage. Much more realistic to pen multiple vehicles with ordnance weapons, and others with large blasts.
I will say, that heavy mech, is actually much more durable than it was last edition. 3-4 land raiders in a list at under 2k. Much better than previous editions. More durable and more offensive power. The bastion and fortress of redemption also allow a AV14 spam list to feature many more AV14 targets at relatively low costs.
In terms of heavy vehicles being more durable, look at the changes:
-Vehicles only need 25% concealment, as opposed to the 50% required last edition.
-Vehicles benefit from area terrain saves, like those from techmarine bolstered ruins.
-MCs are not longer getting extra dice against vehicles. They may take S10 with half as many attacks, but it still means they require 4s to glance AV14
-Glances have no chance of destroying with a single shot. Non-AP1 or AP2 shots also have very little chance of a single shot destruction.
-Psychic powers are now able to equip vehicles with buffs to make them more durable, invulnerable saves being one of the many examples.
-Some fortifications are also able to grant saves to vehicles, in example, the skyshield landing pad.
In terms of weak points new to this edition, the changes to moving and using WS to hit, are really the only downer for AV14 vehicles.
Yes, glancing a vehicle to death is a threat in this edition, but look at the numbers:
Normal BS to hit the target. If BS3, in example, 1/2 of all shots will fail to hit their target. Then cover, as getting a 4+ or better cover save is actually easier in this edition, we'll assume a 4+ save. Half again miss, or rather 1/4 of all shots fail to hit. On the pen roll, S10 shots are still looking at 4s to glance, making 1/2 fail to even glance. Now it's 1/8 just to deal any damage with a S10 shot. Should this be a psychic power, the 1/8 is marginally reduced further due to the vehicle being allowed a deny the witch roll. And this is targeting a vehicle with just average cover and nothing too special on/in the vehicle.
In terms of offensive power, the changes to the vehicle shooting rules have actually given land raiders more shots per turn, as they are not longer limited by defensive or offensive weapons. As most LRs feature almost every weapon twin-linked, the BS1 snapfire rules have less impact than on other vehicles.
The changes to disembarking, also benefit the heavy mech (LRs specifically), as being able to move 6", disembark 6" and then charge another 2d6" has a higher threat range than in the past edition. Mounted infantry are able to effectively threaten a 14-24" area, as opposed to last editions' 12-18" threat.
I suppose the last big change is the presence of techmarines, and similar units, which can heal the vehicle while embarked. Although they could do this last edition, the practice was less common due to the ability to reliably destroy all vehicles with single shots.
Melta, lance, and rending remain the same level of threat as last edition, though it is a bit lessened with the potential to grant vehicles invulnerable and it will not die saves.
-Pax
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