Mech isn't dead

[hyv3mynd]

Aug 9, 2012 16:24:01 GMT Bot said:

Aug 9, 2012 15:35:18 GMT hyv3mynd said:

@ wisdomeyes - ap2 is actually no better than last edition against vehicles.

That's not true. AP2 gives you +1 to the Vehicle Damage table in 6th edition.

[edit]

As for the Mech spam being dead? I don't really know yet. They are not gone in my area... They are not as good as they were back in 5th edition that's true, but they are still here. Hopefully they will fade away with time.

While ap2 got +1, the whole damage table shifted -1. You can only destroy a vehicle with a pen6. With the +1 for ap2, it's a 5+ which is the same as 5th ed. So yes, ap2 is no better against vehicles than 5th ed.

[wisdomseyes1]

Aug 9, 2012 15:35:18 GMT hyv3mynd said:

@ wisdomeyes - ap2 is actually no better than last edition against vehicles.

You might want to recheck your rulebook.... It gives +1 on the VDC. HOWEVER, due to the change to the VDC, it's only significant on a 5. Because every other result becomes the same as it was before, and the 5 would have killed it before anyway. That is what you mean yes? I agree with that.

@op: my tiny gaming group isn't the only place I play, thank you very much. "tiny" being a funny word with 10 people so it's actually much bigger than even my LGS.

I'll admit I haven't gone to a tourney since 5th edition ore necrons, but I have been to the battle bunker and games-workshop since that time and played (and won)

No, I am no nationals player. I dont have that much dedication to the hobby, I don't believe I have the funds or skills that some other people do, but I do know what I am talking about most of the time.

Let's disregard fliers for the moment. And please lets stop comparing them to monstrous creatures with 3 wounds... There is a reason vehicles only have 2 stats and monstrous creatures have... Well every other stat.

What exactly are vehicles good for right now? Rhinos are pretty common, so I'll go with that. What is a rhino good for right now (and I know razorbacks are liked a bit more because tey have big guns, but I'll get to that a bit later)

You can increase your move by 6", period. You can move 6", still disembark, and move so that you are no more than 6" away from the vehicles entry points. So, for a turn, you became jump infantry that (usually) cant assault.

You can hide your guys inside the vehicle to deal with small arms fire, but that's usually short ranged and insugnificant early game. It is advantageous to move them into back lines while forcing your opponents to deal with the rhino.

I have NEVER said "mech is dead" I said "mech isn't being spammed in the same way as it was" and I have said many times that there will find a balance eventually. rhinos and transports DO have uses, but not early the flexibility they once had. Tey were once I destructible to most anything we did (or do you not remember the near infuriating amount of 1,2,3,4's you got on the VDT) scoring (they just put some weak guys inside) cant be hit in close combat (no, they didn't count as having a weapon skill last edition) monstosities.


Last edition I said "Tyranids vehicles are monstrous creatures, and our vehicles are very expensive". Now, we can do something. We can kill 35 point models with our 200 point monstrous creatures. That is something I have craved for a long time. And it's somethig that has made many people increase their number of moldels on the table that aren't vehicles because vehicles don't serve quite the same "do everything and do it well" purpose they did before.

Now to fliers. They are vehicles. They are shooting oriented, they have ignored most shooting that would destroy vehicles, they have no shooting penalty. Honestlythe only thing that keeps me from getting absolutely infuriated with them is that they can't turn well, so I can more easily avoid fire from them. They are popular right now because they have all the disadvantages of vehicles plus some advantages we have never had to deal with before.

The metagame is less vehicles right now. Vehicles are garbage IN COMPARISON TO WHAT WE HAVE DEALT WITH IN THE PAST (caps for emphasis). Do they still have a place in game? Yes. Of course. They wouldn't make them completely useless. But we have a much better chance now as Tyranids. I haven't used a single hive guard since the edition change against the same exact lists I used to barely scratch and had to pull some cheesy tactic at the end of the game to win (usually last minute tervigon spawn if there wasn't a vehicle already holding the objective, otherwise contest by assaulting) and I have been winning without issues.

It's like a giant presure has been lifted from my chest. People can spam their mech all they want... But now it's like spamming anything else. The list is pretty one demential when you do it now. And that's what I like, an that's what makes me happy with this edition change. Mech isn't dead, the machines that can't die are and do everything we wish we could are.

[creep]

Doublepost, sorry

You only destroy Vehicles with a unmodified roll of 6 now insteand of 5 like in 5th.
So Ap 2 and Ap 1 kill still on 5+ or 4+ as back in 5th. No difference in this isolated Secenario without hull points or cover beeing relevant.

WestRider: Dakkafex is wasted points if you really took one to kill transports its even more. 190 points to kill half of its worth if you are lucky to live long enough .... horrible *shiver*
If you just wanted to make an example - Im sorry, no offense intended in that case.


Lanesend. I live in a beatiful place full of Rainbows, shiny things, fluffy things and bunnys.... looots of bunnys. There is just one problem - its also populated by humans and they are like the plague.... gross. Its hard to find even one of them that you can actually like for his personality. So I usually go for superficial things like "not annoying on sight", "does not hug me the moment I first met her" as a result I am an sociopath having nothing but my appearance and a lot of cyncal thoughts. But ehll I do know a lot of pretty people, I like most of them, they like me to for no apparent reason. I loved 3 of them, not sure if besides number 3 anyone ever had enough reason to love me, but they still do. But beeing an a*hole really does seem to attract people, thats something awesome! Right?
I wish it all would burn in hell. I just have to be alive a few Billion years from now, when the sun starts burning Helium and will make my dream true.
Hope thats kind of what you wanted to hear.
Sincerly - Me

P.S.: You may have guessed by now that i didnt call myself creep for no reason.


@ wisdomeyes
I read "local GW or battle bunker" then stopped reading.
I am talking about stuff like NOVA, where stuff like mech or not mech actually matters.
Please go to Yesthetruthhurts and tell Stelek your opinion, his answers never cease to amuse me. Would like to hear an answer on that post of yours lol

[Deleted]

We love you Creep, GROUP HHHUUUGGG!!!!!

[wisdomseyes1]

A dakka fex pretty effectively kills most infantry too, an is one of our et solutions to fliers being high volumes of fire and twin linked.

12 shots, 9 hits, 7-8 wounds on terminators, 1-2 die. That's one of the toughest units... That there is. And overwatch for 2 hits and wounds. And against av11 if it's not a flier those are 3 glancing/penitrating hits which would be a wreck (on average)

But that's assuming you shoot it at the transport. It's a lot more flexible now because it CAN kill transports. It couldn't before. And it's not bad at it. And... How else do Tyranids deal with fliers other than hope people don't choose to spam them? So far I have ignored fliers for the most part, because people haven't looked very hard into just how painful that 90 degree pivot and straight line minimum distance really is. Once people start tactically moving them, it will be a lot harder to deal with them... One person did factor it in and trashed his opponent (just a game I watched) It was scary

I read "local GW or battle bunker" then stopped reading.
I am talking about stuff like NOVA, where stuff like mech or not mech actually matters.
Please go to Yesthetruthhurts and tell Stelek your opinion, his answers never cease to amuse me. Would like to hear an answer on that post of yours lol

I was plenty in the tournament scene 5th edition. Haven't been in a while. I don't have the funds to get more models (I'm using a freaking Itouch because I don't har a computer for god sake)

And I know exactly how tournaments are going. I know necrons are just next to undefeated because of their fliers, high volumes of fire, and laughing at any vehicles or fliers that come onto the table.

I play Tyranids. I have played them sinse 5th. If you think mech matters to me your mistaken. I don't need to know if it is still good, I just need to know how to win against it, and it is pretty easy to deal with now. So... Yea. You bring your tyranid mech (you probably don't play Tyranids competitively, I'm sorry) while I'll play Tyranids with the idea it's really easy to kill one demenbtional lists, run circles around lists with scoring I can kill... Ext.

You think for whatever reason that people who don't go to tournaments don't have a clue. You are mistaken my friend. I keep up with what is good, I keep up with what is not. Mech is good, Tyranids are worthless and there is absolutely no reason to play them this edition. That's what I keep hearing on dakka dakka, warseer, ext. I'm sorry if I don't entirely agree with the logic of people who "win tournaments" considering I have won tournaments quite often.

As I said, but you seemed to miss from not reading, no I don't think I have the level of skill, the funds, or the level of dedication to play in NOVA. But I would put money on, neither do you. So don't be a hypocrite. I don't think there is one person here who has gone to NOVA and ranked high. It was a SHOCK last edition when Tyranids got 3rd place in a major tournament.

You believe you are so good and my opinion doesn't matter because I am not currently playing tournaments and you are goin an losing... Well, good luck with that

[leeroy1986]

Tyranids slaughter mech builds except maybe Flyers. But normal Tanks, Hive Guard Zoanthropes, Flyrants, Tyrannofexes, Dakkafexes as mentioned, literally if you're struggling with tanks as Nids you need some shooty units =) Maybe mech isn't dead but it's suicidal vs Tyranids.

[N.I.B.]

Way too early to call anything dead at this point, the meta is still up in the air. Aegis defense lines make mech even harder to kill with shooting than in 5th ed. Easy to bubble wrap them with a 2+ gone to ground infantry unit, behind the Aegis.

[wisdomseyes1]

Aug 9, 2012 21:48:16 GMT N.I.B. said:

Way too early to call anything dead at this point, the meta is still up in the air. Aegis defense lines make mech even harder to kill with shooting than in 5th ed. Easy to bubble wrap them with a 2+ gone to ground infantry unit, behind the Aegis.

Why exactly do you need the bubble wrap? They are getting 4+ cover anyway. Or is this to make it "obscured" to give an additional +1 to the save (how exactly that works I have not been able to figure out, others seem to though)

[Jpogfreak886]

I don't know about other armies, but i haven't seen too much of a change for my Dark Eldar. Maybe they have even been improved from 5th. But i think this si due to how I've always played my Dark Eldar, which is of course Glass Hammer. People say vehicles have been made a lot more squishy, but with AV 10 open-topped all around, I'm use to hoping my tanks in and out of line of site to they live. DE have always been squishy, so they've been made to deny a chance to squish them better than most other armies.

The new glancing rules really help too. Sure Str 4 weapons can wreck a raider if they have enough, but in always happier to loose a Hull point than get stunned. It really plays to Dark Eldar; you can sacrifice a hull point and still unload with 20 poisoned shots and a dark lance without getting knocked about and staying a sitting duck.

I know this wont apply to many other armies which use to rely on strength instead of speed, but i think that only means that armies need to find a new tactic for their vehicles and evolve the way they play. I don't think Mech is dead, but i sure as hell hope parking lots are.

[milkybarnid]

its never been a problem that our fexes and gants cant kill transports such as rhinos and the norm, its dealing with the sheer amount of cheap transports is the problem. with the meta up in the air as N.I.B said, there is no set way to deal with mech, if an opponent runs rhino/razor spam, we are still going to struggle. most of our weapons are anti infantry that can deal with light vehicles. shooting at a vehicle incurs the cost of not shooting at an infantry unit. dont get me wrong there is a cost generally anyway. fliers will be a pain no matter what but we will deal with them

regardless the point im trying to make is that vehicles are not dead, we will just see less. i cant remember who said this, but it was on another thread, the meta will shift to the decision of lots of cheap vehicles or few high AV vehicles. either way we adapt and destroy.

[leeroy1986]

Didn't think units behind Aegis defence lines got cover saves vs Hive Guard and the Tyrants just fly round it. Trygons drop in and eat BUT Thropes and fexes wouldn't be advisable yeah

[wisdomseyes1]

What my point boils down to is that mech has gotten tons of changes... And the only positive ones are the VDC and 25% cover.

When I played against mech, my issue wasn't just killing them, and if you are going to sit at your computer and say you had no problems with killing them before you are a liar, it was the scoring and contesting with them.

Vehicles are easier to kill. That's a big plus for us. Vehicles can't score (most of the time), that's a big hit for every other army. That got rid of so much of their initial power. I was never scared of a rhino. I was scared of a scoring rhino that if I didn't roll a 5-6 on the VDT I wouldn't be able to deal with. I CAN deal with them now. That's all I care about.

[aihtin]

Mech is and is not dead. For the most part and as the rules go mech is dead in the sense you can no longer spam a parking lot tank army and sit/move around in a block laughing at anyone not doing the same (very boring fight there). And you cant sit your tanks on objectives and know with confidence its going to have little issue sitting there all game and then score at the end. It has become a lot easier to kill tanks and this is one of if not the biggest reason nids are very scarry again (or any army with a lot of mid str shots). Without those hard nearly invincible shells protecting them, the troops inside are at a huge risk to both their tank blowing up on them (not any easier but its there) and then to the ensuing tsunami of shots/melee to tear into them.

Now to the mech is not dead part. Tanks serve what they were made to do. A rhino was not made to be an invincible wall it was made to transport troops up the field faster than they can walk and that is what it dose. The tanks that are easy to kill are cheep point wise, may give your men a 12" boost in movement (whole game there), and can provide some cover when out in the open. The tanks that are harder to kill are the tanks that can do some damage like a land raider or a monolith, and the ones that do damage but are easier to kill do more damage than the harder to kill ones. You get what you pay for and a 35pt rhino should not be harder to kill than a 300pt MC and now its not.

Yes the rules are not in the tanks favor right now compared to where they were before but now we nid players are on an equal playing field with our MC vs Tanks, both having wounds now and us not complaining we have no AV tank like units.

[WestRider]

Aug 9, 2012 17:30:42 GMT creep said:

WestRider: Dakkafex is wasted points if you really took one to kill transports its even more. 190 points to kill half of its worth if you are lucky to live long enough .... horrible *shiver*
If you just wanted to make an example - Im sorry, no offense intended in that case.

A Dakkafex is a decent Unit regardless. In Turns 1-2, there's often little to shoot at besides Rhinos/Razorbacks. Now they can actually do something besides Shake them. Mostly just pointing out that we have options outside the Elites Slot now that can do something at all, tho.

Aug 9, 2012 22:03:29 GMT wisdomseyes1 said:

Aug 9, 2012 21:48:16 GMT N.I.B. said:

Way too early to call anything dead at this point, the meta is still up in the air. Aegis defense lines make mech even harder to kill with shooting than in 5th ed. Easy to bubble wrap them with a 2+ gone to ground infantry unit, behind the Aegis.

Why exactly do you need the bubble wrap? They are getting 4+ cover anyway. Or is this to make it "obscured" to give an additional +1 to the save (how exactly that works I have not been able to figure out, others seem to though)

The Bubble Wrap is there to stop them from getting Charged. Mass S4 Attacks murder basic Transports if they can make it into Assault, so sacrificing something to delay that Charge by at least a Turn is usually worthwhile.

[fleetofclaw]

Aug 9, 2012 0:24:12 GMT wisdomseyes1 said:

Ap2 means a lot more than before. Ap1 is even scarier.

This is erroneous. The 6th damage chart is pretty much the 5th damage chart -1. AP2 just means dead vehicle damage results on 5 & 6, which was is the same on the 5e unmodified chart (yeah yeah 5 was a wreck, who cares). In other words, AP1 and AP2 have the same chance to get a dead vehicle pen result as they did in 5th, now AP3 or worse rolls on the chart as if they had a -1 on the old 5th chart (with the exception that 1 gives you a result now).