6th Edition frenzy, 2 1750pt lists

[DarkGuard]

So when 6th Ed came out I looked at the rules, looked at my Nids, and said "enjoy sometime on the shelf guys". I always intended to come back to them, but I just had to work something out for them. I had clear ideas for my Marine lists, but not my Nids. Well now I've fleshed out and played with my Marines, and turned my gaze back to my Nids, trying to work out how to make them work in 6th Ed.

So, for those who don't know, I was originally running a Swarmlord list with a high success rate, the thread and score can be found in my sig. The idea was to have a fast but durable army that could attack from many fronts at once. So I had Outflanking Stealers, Ymgarls, a Hormagaunt/Gargoyle screen, a Tervigon with Termagants for scoring, Hive Guard and a Trygon, plus Swarmlord. And it worked well. People were overwhelmed by numbers, power, and endurance, and it was great. Then 6th Ed changed all that. No assaulting out of Reserve in particular hurt, but so did changes to Fleet etc. And other things made things difficult. Changes to cover means my Hormagaunts were more exposed, and changes to beasts and psychic powers meant I really wanted to put Raveners and Zoanthropes in.

So I sat down, and came up with two lists. One has Swarmlord, one doesn't. Feedback on both would be much appreciated thank you.

This is the first, the Swarmlord one. It's theoretical, I haven't played it yet.

HQ
Swarmlord = 280
2x Tyrant Guard w/ lash whips = 130

Elites
2x Hive Guard = 100
2x Zoanthropes = 120
6x Ymgarls = 138

Troops
5x Genestealers w/ toxin sacs, Broodlord w/ toxin sacs, scything talons, implant attack = 165
5x Genestealers w/ toxin sacs, Broodlord w/ toxin sacs, scything talons, implant attack = 165
24x Hormagaunts w/ toxin sacs = 192pts
10x Termagants = 50
Tervigon w/ scything talons, cluster spines, toxin sacs, adrenal glands, Catalyst = 200

Heavy Support
Trygon w/ toxin sacs = 210

Total = 1750pts

So my meta has now gone very foot/hybrid, so Hive Guard aren't needed as much. Changes to psychic hoods also mean that Zoanthropes IMO came better, as did BGB powers. I can keep them with their powers for Warp Lance against mech heavy forces, or switch to Psychic Scream and an extra power if my opponent doesn't have many tanks. The Genestealers with Broodlords take Biomancy powers and infiltrate into good positions. Swarmlord attempts to get one or both of the WC2 Telepathy powers, and maybe some Biomancy ones as well.

Otherwise, it operates similar to my 5th Ed list. Move everything up fast and hit hard.


And here's the other list, which I used today:

HQ
Tyranid Prime w/ dual boneswords, deathspitter, toxin sacs and regen = 115

Elites
3x Hive Guard = 150
2x Zoanthropes = 120
6x Ymgarls = 138

Troops
6x Genestealers w/ toxin sacs, Broodlord w/ toxin sacs, scything talons = 167
6x Genestealers w/ toxin sacs, Broodlord w/ toxin sacs, scything talons = 167
26x Hormagaunts w/ toxin sacs = 208
10x Termagants = 50
Tervigon w/ scything talons, cluster spines, toxin sacs, adrenal glands, Catalyst, Onslaught = 215

Fast Attack
3x Raveners w/ rending claws = 105
3x Raveners w/ rending claws = 105

Heavy Support
Trygon w/ toxin sacs = 210

Total = 1750pts

So Prime instead of Broodlord. Less psychic here (the theme I kind of want), but I get to use my Raveners, which got better with the new edition. Those Raveners either act as counter attack or move up quickly to support the Stealer units. The Prime unit hops to where he's needed. Otherwise it works like the above list.

This one played an Imperial Guard and Grey Knight list today. His firepower was frightening. I lost 23 Hormagaunts in one shooting phase, plus 5 Stealers, although my cover was awful. We generated it as per BGB and rolled 3 1s for 3 of the 2x2 sections. However, I was able to get my heavy hitters (Stealers, Trygon and Ravs) into his lines, and was pretty much running amoc when he had to go. I was winning anyway on secondary objectives, but would have easily cleared him off his primary objective for a 6-0 win had it gone on.

In the game the Broodlords were good. Both rolled Enfeeble, which really helped in killing a Dreadknight, while the Trygon mowed through a Grey Knight squad, a Dread and was setting sights on an Imperial Guard squad. The Zoanthropes could have done better, but out of 4 psychic scream tests passed, 1 was denied, while 2 missed. The Ravs were mixed. They're pretty fragile still, if your opponent gets hits in Overwatch you're losing wounds. But they hit quite hard and are very fast, able to catch units unawares. The question is whether they're worth Swarmlord.

With Swarmlord, I would have had a deathstar, more psychic powers, hopefully something like Invisibility, and just a general centre to my army. But then I'd lose out on the speed of the Ravs. So that's my dilemma. Any insight will be much appreciated, thanks in advance.

[wisdomseyes1]

With swarm lord: I have actually in the past 2 days, gained a huge amount of respect for the swarm lord. 4 psychic powers on biomancy, it is very likely to get 2 buffs that it wants (fnp, iron arm) to make the unit more durable and warp speed for fleet. Just the grand total obthem all in tandem is not even funny. And it will not die annoys people.

I take it with a prime that has regen and an additional guard, but it is a massive amount of points so I don't totally reccomend it (though I have played 3 games with it an my opponents by the 3rd game stopped shooting at it, there really wasnt any killing it, running away was all they could do.)

Anyway, tervigan with talons because you had extra points? I stopped using adrenal glands this edition just altogether on monstrous creatures. Even the gants don't seem like they need them anymore, with the only vehicles being used can't be assaulted. Crushing claws and biomancy with 3 powers and maybe TS on tervigons are popular right now. And with that offensive mindset, having jumped that band waggon, I actually started taking stinger salvo or overwatch, an running otherwise. The overwatch is minimal, but it's something. It's also a chance against fliers that cluster spines isn't.

I don't really feel the TS is needed on the trygon. It's much nicer than before, but it's 10 points for prefered enemy in close combat... (reroll ones) and it really doesnt have enough impact on the combat resolution for me to personally take it. Its a nice idea, but really no.

TS make the rending much more fun. With my brood lords I go for telepathy for the maledictions, and/or blessing (invisible) and always can be sure I have something I can use (bs0 is annoying, basic power helps though) you could always save tons of points by going vanilla on the stealers allowing for more total models. Remember you want to win combat on your opponents turn. Also, why talons on the broodlord?

Second list: why no lash on the tyranid prime? It's such a huge combat buff I can't see a reason not to take it.

Lots of gaunts 0.o

Repeat much of the above.

That's what i have for now, take from it what you will

[DarkGuard]

Thanks for taking the time to reply wisdomseyes1, it is much appreciated. I will do my best to reply to your points to the best of my ability.

So the first list, I'm glad to hear you've had a good experience with Swarmlord in this edition, so you'd recommend Biomancy is the way to go? The way I was looking at it was that if going Biomancy, surely a normal Hive Tyrant would be a better and cheaper option, and that when taking Swarmlord you might as well attempt to get Invisibility and/or Hallucination. Of course, there's a 1/3 chance of getting one of them, so I should get one, but could end up with some duff powers from Telepathy rather than the Biomancy powers I'd prefer. So you would recommend leaving Telepathy (and Invisibility) alone and going pure Biomancy then?

With the Tervigon, and this will become a recurring theme I'm afraid, it's modelled with them. I didn't model crushing claws as they'd always have to be them, but I used scything talons as the front legs so I could choose to have them or not (it's a Carnifex conversion). I have read a lot on the new Tervifex stuff, and it seems good. But I'd still prefer my Tervigon to be support, and so therefore I'm trying not to spend too many points. However, you're probably right about adrenal glands, toxin sacs should be good enough anyway for my Termagants. However, I'm not too keen on swapping out for the BGB powers there. I have a definite FnP power here, which is still pretty good. My Tervigon is still hanging around backfield spawning Gaunts, and it's just got better counter-attacking. I could risk getting the better FnP power, but I quite like having the guaranteed one. It's something I may do every now and then, but in general I don't think I'll be swapping her powers out.

I will beg to differ on toxin sacs with the Trygon though, just last night I rolled 2 ones to wound with it, I definitely need those toxin sacs to just offset my bad luck. Still, it's a points filler more than anything, and certainly something that can easily not be set in stone.

With the Stealers, I feel the small squad size means I can pull punches, even with toxin sacs. Most of the time I'm in combat for a second round with that small a squad. As for the scything talons on the Broodlord, against WYSIWYG, but it also helps round the total points value of the list to a "0", while also being a 2pt upgrade is quite nice when this guy is a character. I get re-rolls on 1s to hit, and then re-rolls half the time on the to wound roll, which means he's nasty guy for challenges.

However, I'm not too sure about your reasoning for Telepathy with Broodlords. You can't use two powers (Invisibility and Hallucination) as they're WC2 and he's ML1, so you have to re-roll them. He can't use the Primaris power as it needs to roll to hit, which also means he can't use one of the four remaining powers (Puppet Master is a focussed witchfire power). That leaves you with two Maledictions and one Blessing, the Blessing being useless for us (Mental Fortitude). you therefore have only 2 powers, although admittedly out of 4, so half chance of getting them. Dominate is all right, and Terrify is quite good, so I may have a look into them. However, I may leave that discipline to my Zoanthropes entirely, maybe Swarmlord. I personally like Biomancy for the Broodlords. I get a chance for another Enfeeble/Endurance user, while a third of the powers are combat buffs.


With the second list, Prime is WYSIWYG, I gave him dual boneswords when I made him. I would prefer a lash whip, maybe scything talons, but I haven't made a new model yet, and don't want to pull that one apart, but I'll look into it if I can.

I also feel I haven't got enough Gaunts if I'm being honest.


Also, what's you opinions on Raveners these days? With all the changes to beasts they seem like pretty nippy and useful units now, able to threaten many things with sheer speed.

Thanks again for your input, I'll be revising my decision on Swarmlord, and will most likely drop the adrenal glands on the Tervigon for something different in the list.

[scorpio]

I think your lists are great and even more so as they include swarmy! I hope you will give me permission to use your 1st list in my upcoming battle against necrons as I think it will fair well against them. Thank you again for creating a great list!

[DarkGuard]

Feel free to use it mate, I'm probably not the first to think of it. Please do feedback on how it goes, I'm not sure about the lack of speed that one has compared to the Ravs for example. It's basically a question of whether the psychic powers and deathstar nature of Swarmy is worth the loss of speed that Ravs bring.

[Jabberwocky]

I can't write an epic reply right now but I'll just share some of my experiences.

Swarmlord with biomancy is incredible. Guard just seem to slow him down now, losing MTC and fleet (from warpspeed) and he is so durable with iron arm/endurance he often won't be targetted anyway, especially over say a Trygon which is generally seen as faster.

Telepathy on Broodlords can be good, especially if running raveners. 24" fearless buff means running raveners outside of synapse for rage-feeding A6 on the charge. Dominate effectively is a pinning test on a unit 1st turn if you are infiltrating. Terrify lets you break fearless units and could even let somethingfast run off the table first turn! If a unit is broken it then also fails it's morale test if you can cause 25% shooting casualties and will almost certainly be off the table.

Puppet master doesn't work but you are guaranteed to get at least 1 of the others and more likely 2.

Now that isn't to say biomancy isn't good on them, it certainly is, you just run the risk of rolling both shooting attacks and suffering for it.

[hyv3mynd]

Just a few things about the replies.

Isn't invisibility warp charge 2? So broodlords cannot use it.

MTC now only requires one model in the unit to have so swarmlord is not slowed by having guards.

[reallysorry]

So how do you deal with flyers and/or vehicle spam armies?

[fragile]

Cant write a long one, but if you use the first list, I would drop a guard and a few other points to get a Prime there. You now have a pumpable toughness Deathstar. Everytime that swarmlord uses Iron Arm, it will bump the entire unit up to his Toughness and other fun Lo'S tricks.

[DarkGuard]

Haven't got much time so quick replies:

Jabberwocky, I'll take your word on those, and will look into using those disciplines next time I play. Like hyv3mynd said Tyrant Guard won't slow down Swarmlord due to the way Fleet works. I do really want to make Swarmlord work in this edition with my list, so will look into using him. I do also see what you mean by Telepathy meaning you'll definitely get a power you can use, although I still think the Fearless one isn't great.

reallysorry, by not playing them. My entire metagame has gone foot crazy recently, with very few mech lists, only a couple of vehicles per list. As for flyers, there's one per list. But I ask you, how do you deal with flyers? How does anyone? TL-Devs? That's a nice option, but not one I can use with my models. Erm... Thing is, all armies are poorly equipped to deal with flyers at the moment. So the answer is I don't, I deal with the stuff on the ground, and hope that 4x4 board really limit the mobility of a flyer. As for mech, the thread in my sig basically has 4 pages of me trying to overcome mech, and I do so quite well. I take them out in combat when I can, with Hive Guard, or with Zoanthropes, remember they have Warp Lance. Again, like flyers, Nids aren't really designed to be a massive anti-mech army, certainly not at range. So I deal with it best I can, one at a time.

fragile, that's certainly a good idea, I didn't think of that. I'll look into that, although it may be too late to sort something out for tomorrow, I may be able to implement that for the week after. Regen on the Prime would also help with this deathstar trick thingy, especially if I roll Endurance. I do worry about what would happen should the Tyrant Guard die, does the Prime auto-leave the unit as the Swarmlord isn't actually an IC and can only ever be taken in units of 1?

Thanks for the comments guys, they're really helpful, keep them coming.

[rendy]

How do you set up your genestealer units-i.e. where do you put the broodlord- at the back, front etc..?

I've been running three 6-man broodlord-genestealer units at 1000 pts and have found them to be quite durable. It is my understanding that with the broodlord at the front any shooting from the front then allows me to use his (better) save.

Enfeeble cast by these guys has been awesome.

[Jabberwocky]

Gah I've been missing out on MTC! Fleet definitely requires the whole unit to have it though.

Vehicle spam is fairly easy. Plenty of TL Devs, rending and you can spam telekinesis on Broodlords and hope for OM. Dome, shockwave and gate all have some use too so it's not a bad discipline to be stuck with.

[reallysorry]

Aug 2, 2012 5:51:33 GMT Jabberwocky said:

Gah I've been missing out on MTC! Fleet definitely requires the whole unit to have it though.

Vehicle spam is fairly easy. Plenty of TL Devs, rending and you can spam telekinesis on Broodlords and hope for OM. Dome, shockwave and gate all have some use too so it's not a bad discipline to be stuck with.

I don't know which thread you're looking at but he hasn't got a whole lot of TL Devs in his list which is the reason I've asked my question in the first place.
Furthermore he has no Flyrants to deal with enemy flyers which is a huge No-No for me.
If this isn't a competative list and it's just a list to play against friends and you get to choose your opponents then sure go crazy and put stuff like 6 raveners and 24 Horms and a Trygon.
If this is intended to be a competative/tourney list I really don't see it going far.
You do mention that your local meta has gone very foot/hybrid that's why I'm even considering this might be a playable list versus your friends or local shop but as i mentioned before this list would get slaughtered at a tournament.

[the6thdegree]

Your first list you have overcosted the Gants I think (10 Gants for 60pts).

[N.I.B.]

Aug 2, 2012 7:45:37 GMT reallysorry said:

he has no Flyrants to deal with enemy flyers which is a huge No-No for me.

What, Flyrants are our anti-Fliers now?