6th Edition frenzy, 2 1750pt lists

[reallysorry]

They can Vector Strike enemy fliers and as you know since we are missing a proper antiflier every little bit counts and this list has none of the little bits.

[Jabberwocky]

Hive Guard ignoring jink/dive and Zoans/BL spamming OM are both potential anti-flyer in his list.

[hyv3mynd]

Let's get realistic here guys. Randomly generated psychic powers and hive guard are not anti-flyer. With pre-measuring its very easy for a flyer to just stay out of range when they arrive and focus down the threats.

If you're even slightly considering the possibility of facing 2+ flyers, you'll want a quad gun and a couple MCs with devourers.

[DarkGuard]

reallysorry,

Please let me know which army has heaps of good anti-flyer beyond Imperial Guard. And I'm talking about proper anti-flyer, not rolling lots of dice and hoping ie. TL-Devs, TL-tesla etc.

Yes, this list is to play at my local store, it's not for tournaments. It's also a competitive list as well, because that's what my store is, competitive. It might not be great now, but it's the best I've got.

I'm also curious about this quote:

If this isn't a competative list and it's just a list to play against friends and you get to choose your opponents then sure go crazy and put stuff like 6 raveners and 24 Horms and a Trygon.

Now Hormagaunts, admittedly, may not be the best compared to properly supported Termagants and Gargoyles, but they're still pretty good. Fast and lethal in combat with numbers. Ravs just got boosted in this new edition and make great vanguard units, and the Trygon benefited as well. Your quote, however, makes them sound like awful choices. How? I may not be running a Flyrant and a ton of Tervigons, but I don't like proscribing to mono-build lists.

the6thdegree

That's a typo, it's corrected now. Cheers for pointing it out.

[Jabberwocky]

Aug 2, 2012 14:57:12 GMT hyv3mynd said:

Let's get realistic here guys. Randomly generated psychic powers and hive guard are not anti-flyer. With pre-measuring its very easy for a flyer to just stay out of range when they arrive and focus down the threats.

If you're even slightly considering the possibility of facing 2+ flyers, you'll want a quad gun and a couple MCs with devourers.

While TL-Devs would be my 'go to' option, tailoring against flyers in 6th is like tailoring against AV14 in 5th. It certainly helps you from getting hard-countered but often you are wasting points.

In a tournament setting you may be right but at local level I doubt everyone is running 1+ flyers, let alone people running 2+.

[hyv3mynd]

There are several big differences between av14 in 5th and flyers in 6th.

In 5th, only a few armies had access to av14 and a vast majority used them to deliver assault units. Tyranids generally like assault units coming at us. Plus, their movement was predictable and if you knew how to bubble wrap, they could be easily outplayed. Any of our MC's could flip a land raider.

Now with 6th and allies, every army except ours has access to flying vehicles. Very few units can do more than strip a hull point from a flyer. Plus, they tend to be more shooting oriented which is bad for nids. Arriving from reserves means they will always hit you where it hurts the most and in the case of necrons and IG, they can also deliver a shooty unit. Plasma vets, deathmarks, immortals, and even 15 warriors dropped out of a flyer can win a game.

Leaving flyer defense out of a TAC list is giving control of the game to your opponent. Your may not agree and your experience may be different, but playing a game against several units you cannot hurt will change your mind quickly.

[Jabberwocky]

Even in his list though, he CAN hurt flyers. 6 to hit, 4 to glance (at worst) with HG, even better with Zoans, almost auto glances if you do roll OM.

It's not like the list has Zero shooting, like a 5th ed list with no S6+ facing AV14.

[hyv3mynd]

You know how target priority works in a competitive environment right? You need to give your opponents the benefit of the doubt if you want to be prepared.

If I show up with 2 vendettas and the only thing that can stop them is 2-3 hive guard, guess what's dying first? Yeah, there's a swarmlord and whatever else but its all very slow and once the hive guard are gone, I can fly circles around the mc's and drop them freely.

[nurglitch]

Not so sure you can fly circles with the Vendettas, particularly if the Hive Guard are set up in a certain way. The straight line movement and 90 degree turns really limit them, although I really like the added strategy required to both utilize them and neutralize them.

[Jabberwocky]

Add the fact HG can easily be out of LoS, meaning the flyer has to pass them then turn around. Added they are T6 W2, possibly with endurance on (if they are deemed vital) since it'll be turn 2+ so you should have time to prepare.

I'm not saying flyers aren't a problem, I just don't think given Darkguards meta and posted list, he needs to lay awake at night shivering at the thought of them.

[DarkGuard]

True, flyers aren't such a massive thing at the moment. True, they can be annoying, but on 4x4s their mobility is restricted. At the moment they're a bridge I'll come to. I hope I don't sound ignorant or naive there. I know my list lacks good anti-flyer, and I knew that when I made it. It's just something I have to work around.

Now, today I got a game in. Still no pics or big battle reports, I need to decide on a theme first!

But yeah, I played a game, got 3 turns in due to time restraints, and effectively won 5-1. I controlled one primary objective worth 3pts, my opponent controlled none but got Linebreaker, while I snatched First Blood and Linebreaker as well. This is the list I used:

HQ
Swarmlord = 280
Tyrant Guard w/ lash whips = 65
Tyranid Prime w/ dual boneswords, deathspitter, toxin sacs, regen = 115pts

Elites
2x Hive Guard = 100
2x Zoanthropes = 120
6x Ymgarls = 138

Troops
5x Genestealers w/ toxin sacs, Broodlord w/ toxin sacs, scything talons = 150
5x Genestealers w/ toxin sacs, Broodlord w/ toxin sacs, scything talons = 150
24x Hormagaunts w/ toxin sacs = 192pts
10x Termagants = 50
Tervigon w/ scything talons, stinger salvo, toxin sacs, Catalyst = 190

Heavy Support
Trygon = 200

Total = 1750pts

So I followed wisdomseyes' advice re stingo salvo on the Tervigon, and tried out fragile's Swarmy Deathstar combo. Now, the first I'm not fussed about, the second just didn't work, and I don't think I'll try it again. The reason is didn't work is that I simply didn't roll Iron Arm. In fact, I didn't roll a single combat buff for Swarmy, although I did get both Endurance and Enfeeble which was nice. But for those 115pts I can get another Tyrant Guard with lash whips and another Hive Guard, so I think I won't go for the tactic which requires a bit of luck to pull off.

The main problem in this game, IMO, were my psychic powers. I'll admit I probably did pick the wrong disciplines for my certain creatures though. Swarmy got a not bad roll, Endurance and Enfeeble are amazing, but Haemorrhage and Life Leech (w/e it is) not so much, a combat power would have been nice. Then the Zoanthropes. The only two vehicles my opponent was running was a Stormtalon and Razorback, neither turned up from Reserve in the game. Knowing it was a foot heavy list I chose for both my Zoanthropes to have Psychic Shriek, and then rolled on the Telekinesis table, hoping I'd net OM. I rolled a 4 twice, so swapped to Assail both times, which I wasn't really going to use thanks to having Psychic Shriek. I then chose to take Telepathy with the Broodlords, as advised earlier in this thread, and rolled Terrify with both. Awesome I thought. I then went to Biomancy as I didn't want to risk Telepathy, and rolled Haemorrhage on one, and Iron Arm on the other. So I was reasonably pleased, until I found out that Terrify is basically useless against Marines. Terrify ignores Fearless, but not ATSKNF, and so it was basically forcing morale tests and that's all. I should have made the Broodlords take straight Biomancy in the hope of more Endurance or Enfeeble plus combat powers, or Telekinesis as they can at least (arguably, but lets not argue it here) use Assail. But this is something that was always going to take a while to sort out.

Other than that, I was in an area congested with terrain. Normally good, as less casualties, but it did make my army slow. Swarmlord only handed out Endurance a couple of turns, the Trygon didn't get anywhere, neither did the Stealers, the Hormagaunts eventually managed to charge some Terminators but did nothing. The Hive Guard killed one Marine, the Zoanthropes got to use Psychic Shriek one turn, passing both tests but having one denied and the other miss, and in total only about 6 models from each side died, it was a boring game. It was also my worst unit of the game, the Ymgarls, that won it. They leaped out of terrain Turn 2, charged a unit of Assault Marines and killed one, making them run off the board, endured some firepower thanks to Endurance, and then charged a combat unit on his objective, killing one and pulling the unit off the objective, and also earning me Linebreaker in edition to First Blood. But why worst? Because in all the game they only caused about 6 wounds, of which one 2 Marines died (average), got no rending hits, and worst of all, they hit about 15 times out of 18 the first combat they were in, and 10 out of 12 (I only had 4 then) in the second combat. It seems that all they do is turn up, do hardly any damage, and then die, they certainly would have died next turn. Despite their contribution they're under consideration, and I may replace them, maybe with Ravs.


So, what I learnt. Choose Psychic Disciplines a bit more easily. If you want a specific Psychic Power you're guaranteed to not roll it. Don't go for the odd gimmick even if you think you can pull it off, and especially if you can spend the points better elsewhere.

So here's the revised Swarmlord list:

HQ
Swarmlord = 280
2x Tyrant Guard w/ lash whips = 65

Elites
3x Hive Guard = 150
2x Zoanthropes = 120
6x Ymgarls = 138

Troops
5x Genestealers w/ toxin sacs, Broodlord w/ toxin sacs, scything talons = 150
5x Genestealers w/ toxin sacs, Broodlord w/ toxin sacs, scything talons = 150
24x Hormagaunts w/ toxin sacs = 192pts
10x Termagants = 50
Tervigon w/ scything talons, stinger salvo, toxin sacs, Catalyst = 190

Heavy Support
Trygon = 200

Total = 1750pts

So basically, I lost the Prime for another Tyrant Guard to keep up wounds, while also taking a third Hive Guard, which may help a little against flyers by giving me a greater volume of shots. I really like the fact that I've got lots of psychic powers, potentially, from the BGB, which can really help the list. Also, I'm considering dropping the Ymgarls for another Broodlord unit, or some Ravs who will be able to push up quickly and support the Stealers much like the Ymgarls, but with more attacks. Either way I may need to lose some Hormagaunts to balance points.

Any thoughts? Particularly on the subject of the Ymgarls? Thanks again.

EDIT: @ rendy, I meant to reply to your point in my last post, but forgot to, sorry! At the moment I put the Broodlord in the middle, to protect from shooting. I'm playing them as Broodlord Commandos, so the Stealers are a delivery system, I want the Broodlord alive and using Blessings and Maledictions and in combat. Plus, my luck is too bad to risk using his save! I do agree that running a few of those units can make them quite durable, and I'm highly considering taking another one in place of my Ymgarls, recently my Broodlords have been outstanding, although I do seem to be entering a dry spell re. rending!

[hyv3mynd]

Don't get me wrong, one or two flyers isn't "auto-lose" if your shooting is light. Practice and competence always trumps finding "the magic list". It's a good thing that you're playing the lists as well as discussing them online. One person's tried and true theoryhammer may never work with another person's playstyle. Play your list enough and you can often outplay the movement restrictions on a flyer or two.

The conflict comes when you want a "competitive" list. The meta is evolving weekly and probably won't stabilize with a new competitive fad like mech spam in 5th for a long time. We can only share experiences from our regions and try to predict trends.

My town held its first 6th ed tournament on 7/14, two weeks after the book came out. More armies had flyers than did not. Ground transport spam was less prominent than 5th ed. I faced one vendetta and one doom scythe, and I saw at least 4 storm ravens two of which were in one list. Even with a flyrant, 3 zoans, and 3 hive guard, I didn't even scratch either one. The reality is a lot of things can happen to out AA units in the first two turns before flyers arrive.

Fortifications, allies, and flyers are the big buzz topics for 6th ed. All the new mechanics are very good and attractive to hobbyists and competitive games. Rumors point to at least 6 new flyers possibly coming down the pipe for various armies. Until skyfire availability balances out, flyer spam creates a competitive advantage to those willing to invest (as competitive gamers usually are) so they can create something close to an "auto-win" army. Just like they did for mech spam at the end of 5th ed. Adepticon 2012 was utterly dominated by mech MSU GK both in the championships and the team event accounting for over 400 players. That's a pretty big sample size for our hobby. Mech MSU was so popular because the added durability, mobility, and scoring potential gave it an "auto-win" against some other less competitive armies. With the changes to transport movement, disembarking, assaults, hull points, and objective scoring, mech MSU has 75% less potency now IMO. Pretty soon the competitive mech MSU players will become disillusioned with their parking lots and turn to the new power: flyers.

All speculation of course, but I think the previous trends from foot to mech over past editions and the new focus on flyer models and rules can give us a good idea about where everything is headed.

There's a lot of new and old blood flooding back into the hivemind and I think it's important to be realistic with anyone looking to throw down $200+ to update their army or start a new one. You can play an all foot list with limited firepower and still win nearly every game if you master the "finesse" that tyranids require. You also have to be OK with the potential you'll play a flyer spam list where you can't even hurt half their army. That's the cutoff for a "take-all-comers competitive" list and an "uncompetitive list" for me. AV14 we could always flip with MC's and zoans. Flyers are different in that they are immune to assault and blasts which make up for a large portion of our anti-armor.

TL:DR - Thanks for playing them out and reporting back, that's the best way to go. I've played around with the disciplines and I'm just not happy unless I go full biomancy with everything. Ymgarls are real good, better now with hitting vehicles on 3+. They synergize well with the swarmlord's reserve bonus and his ability to give out PE in the shooting phase.

[fragile]

DG, the Prime wasn't in there just for gimmick. IF you do roll that power, you have created a very hard to kill Deathstar. In my game it was T8/9 for the first 4 rounds.

If you dont roll Iron Arm, no sweat. The prime can still function exactly as the guard did, with more versatility. Lash whip/Bonesword prime with no further upgrades is a slightly more expensive but far better Guard. Regen on almost any Nid is pretty useless. The points cost is always way too high for something that has a very low chance of going off. 1in 6 chance to regen a wound on a game thats based on 5 rounds. Thats less than 1 per game for the points.

Should you find the prime not needed in the SL unit, then you can attach it to anything else you think need protecting, HG, Zoans etc.

Overall Id say you didnt do very good on your powers. For the SL I would have dropped Haemorrhage for Smite and had the 2 shooting attacks (albeit bad ones) for the walk across the board. Leech isnt that bad for post CC healing.

Ymgarls, I like. I like them for the fact that the opponent has to account for something that he cannot see in his set. They are set after deployment so they can be anywhere you need them to be. They can assault immediately so they can tie themselves up into combat rather than most DSing units. From your report though, it sounds like you had a horrible rolling with them. 25 hits should have been 4 rends. Personally I would keep them handy. Things like Devastator squads like to park in cover and shoot.

Raveners I think we will see more of. Their speed now is amazing with 12" move and ignore terrain. I used them recently and was impressed by their movement. Unfortunately mine ran into Mephiston and he promptly ate 5 of them and the last didnt do much to him. But I can see the potential is there.

[N.I.B.]

Aug 3, 2012 0:57:02 GMT fragile said:

DG, the Prime wasn't in there just for gimmick. IF you do roll that power, you have created a very hard to kill Deathstar. In my game it was T8/9 for the first 4 rounds.

I'm not 100% (don't have the BRB here) but I believe with shooting you are still wounded on the majority toughness (like in 5th ed), rendering the extra T on the Prime completely useless. Iron Arm is only interesting in close combat, or when down to no more than two models.

Gargoyles are slightly faster on average, but they die even easier than in 5th ed. I don't see them making it into competitive lists unless something changes.

[fragile]

NIB. Iron Arm is on the Swarmlord. Making him d3 Tougher, T7-9. You now have a unit with T7-9 (swarmlord), T6, and T5. By rule you use majority or lacking a majority the highest.. (7-9). This unit casting IA every turn will at least be T7 or better. Then you can use LOS to spread things around more too.