Shadow in the Warp, 6th ed problem

[wisdomseyes1]

maurgrim: the problem is checking for perils of the warp. The rulebook did describe what happens during a psychic test on certain rolls. The only thing holding my argument back at all is what the book defines a psychic test as. If it defines a psychic test as a roll on leadership, then you roll no matter the situation because it tells you to, and all results hence would be considered a passing result. If it does not define a psychic test as a roll on leadership, I have no argument, because then cordump's argument becomes completely valid. the book doesnt say you have to roll, just you have to pass.

"The Psyker must now pass a Psychic test to see if he can control the power he's calling upon."

all I am concerned about is what a psychic test *is*. My argument is even a double 6 is considered passing. cordumps argument is you check to see if you have already passed the test before you start "step 3". The only issue comes up, because the difference doesnt matter otherwise, because in cordump's method you avoid checking perils of the warp on this test.

He argues this banner created a different way to make a psychic test. I argue the psychic test has stayed the same except your never going to fail.

on your point about blinding venom and friends- With blinding venom, if you automatically hit for whatever reason, are you saying blinding venom no longer works because you *can't* roll to hit.

Again, I have to wait to confirm anything for myself. That is just what I am going on with memory of what I did see (the psychic section is annoying now so I had to read it a few times)

[maugrim]

No, I'm pointing out the fallacy of arguing you still need to roll the dice when you have already considered to have automatically passed the test.

In the Blinding Venom example, you are correct. If you are considered to automatically hit, then Blinding Venom will never engage because by RAW you did not roll a 6 on the To Hit roll. In the normal version if you roll a 6 to hit, you are considered to have automatically passed the wounding roll. According to your logic on Psychic Tests applied here, you would still have to make the roll to wound, even though you are considered to have already passed it. But what happens, in that situation or in your auto-hit version, if you roll a 1? Under the Automatic Pass Fail rule (pg 7) if you rolled a 1 on a roll, you would automatically fail. But you've already automatically succeeded? Which takes precedence?

Similarily, what happens on your Banner-enhanced Force Weapon Psychic Test if you roll an 11 or 12? The roll failed, but you still count it as a pass because of the Banner? But under Step 3 it gives you a result of what happens if the roll fails... why should the Banner override that part of the rule (the failure on the roll) but not the others? Unfortunately it isn't that specifically worded.

No. Step 3's purpose is defined as checking to see if the Psychic Test passes or fails. So if the Test is automatically considered a "Pass" that completes the required part of Step 3. There is an additional condition on the Roll (Perils) - but all the *Step* is checking is pass/fail. Because there is no need to Roll to define the condition that it is checking (Pass/Fail), the additional condition on the results of the now non-existant Roll (Perils) doesn't trigger.

[fragile]

Same argument applies to rolling a Dangerous Terrain test while having Move Through Cover.

If you have to roll even if you "pass" the test, the rules for Dangerous Terrian say that you have to take a wound. Nothing in MTC states that you can avoid or ignore this wound, therefore generating a paradox.

[coredump]

Wisdom, I can clear that up for you. The book clearly states that a Psy test is a Ld test.

But I don't see why that is important. The book doesn't say it has to be taken, just that it has to be passed. If you can pass it without taking it... then that meets the requirements of the rules.

[infornography]

What it comes down to is if you view the step by step part to be a summary to be ignored where it differs from the more thorough description or a list of actual mandatory steps.

To say there is no valid room for debate on the subject is to vastly oversimplify matters.

[wisdomseyes1]

In the Blinding Venom example, you are correct. If you are considered to automatically hit, then Blinding Venom will never engage because by RAW you did not roll a 6 on the To Hit roll. In the normal version if you roll a 6 to hit, you are considered to have automatically passed the wounding roll. According to your logic on Psychic Tests applied here, you would still have to make the roll to wound, even though you are considered to have already passed it.

Not 1 person has been able to cite where this "rules as written" says you dont roll for automatic passes. All I am seeing is "this is how its always been played"

But what happens, in that situation or in your auto-hit version, if you roll a 1? Under the Automatic Pass Fail rule (pg 7) if you rolled a 1 on a roll, you would automatically fail. But you've already automatically succeeded? Which takes precedence?

The rule that says you automatically hit. codex > rulebook.

Similarily, what happens on your Banner-enhanced Force Weapon Psychic Test if you roll an 11 or 12? The roll failed, but you still count it as a pass because of the Banner? But under Step 3 it gives you a result of what happens if the roll fails... why should the Banner override that part of the rule (the failure on the roll) but not the others? Unfortunately it isn't that specifically worded.

If you roll a 12 then you suffer a perils of the warp, but no matter the result you passed the test.

Wisdom, I can clear that up for you. The book clearly states that a Psy test is a Ld test.

But I don't see why that is important. The book doesn't say it has to be taken, just that it has to be passed. If you can pass it without taking it... then that meets the requirements of the rules.

It is important because it defines what a psychic test is. No where does it state that an automatic pass replaces normal procedure, it simply states that the requirements have been met for the "step" (which we can ignore because it generalizes and cuts corners)

How are we arguing to skip steps if the steps dont matter. I mean I guess we can start "skipping steps" but if we skip steps we have t be allowing the steps as part of our system of taking psychic powers and then adding the part in step 3 which says to take a psychic test, causing a paradox (unless we roll and it always passes, even on an 11 or 12)


-----

Regardless, I concede this argument. I have understood the arguments presented but have yet to fully agree, and so long as I understand what your point of view is I have enough understanding for it not to become a problem.

[coredump]

No one is skipping a step. The step says you need to pass, the test. The Banner allows you to pass the test. Step completed, not skipped. the step does not say anything about taking the test....

[maugrim]

Jul 21, 2012 4:29:34 GMT wisdomseyes1 said:

Not 1 person has been able to cite where this "rules as written" says you dont roll for automatic passes. All I am seeing is "this is how its always been played"

Quite true. But the converse is equally true. No one has quoted from RAW a place where it says that you *do* roll for automatic passes.

[wisdomseyes1]

Jul 21, 2012 13:53:24 GMT maugrim said:

Jul 21, 2012 4:29:34 GMT wisdomseyes1 said:

Not 1 person has been able to cite where this "rules as written" says you dont roll for automatic passes. All I am seeing is "this is how its always been played"

Quite true. But the converse is equally true. No one has quoted from RAW a place where it says that you *do* roll for automatic passes.

which is kind of my point. the rulebook doesnt define auto passes/ auto fails (except maybe page 7 where it never says "you dont need to roll")

the rules define what a psychic test is. the rules define how to take one. the rules define what happens if you pass said test. the rules never state that by passing automatically you dont roll dice, nor does it create any other methodology to take a psychic test. And the brotherhood banner itself never creates a new method, it just passes automatically.

This would be much nicer is the Grey Knights codex would have just stated how it works with Perils or on th other side of the coil just said "no psychic test is required for this" like they have in every other codex.

This is my last post, I shall post no further. Cross my heart and hope to fly, stick a cupcake in my eye

---edit to keep my promise--- I understand that if/when an FAQ comes out on this it will rule in favor of the grey knights and other auto passes, and I understand that is what it was meant to be. I am just not sure the rules are clear enough on this. I will still play it as it was for the soul reason: the only grey knights player around here plays Guard knight so it wont be a problem And My SitW seldom gets that close.

[Jabberwocky]

There are however several examples with other tests and 'to hit/wound' where you cannot roll and have an automatic result. Rolling always has a chance to fail in these cases.

There just isn't a solid example for LD/psychic tests, other than in WHFB where there is one pretty conclusively in the beastmen FAQ saying you cannot roll an automatically passed LD test to try for an extra outcome which happens on a double 1.

[coredump]

Wisdom, Please follow this: The rules *DON'T TELL YOU TO TAKE THE TEST*. They tell you to pass it. If you pass it, you have followed the rules.

You are starting from the concept that you have to take a test... but that is not what it says. It says to pass the test....

[dragoon13833]

I say that because grey knights auto pass psychic tests means they don't suffer perils of the warp because Typhus doesnt suffer perils of the warp. Page 55 of the chaos space marine codex states that 'Typhus always passes his psychic tests when using these two powers (and so is also immune to the effects of perils of the warp)'. I see it that if he is immune so are the grey knights as the rules are worded in the same way, that they auto pass psychic tests.

[chairmanwoo]

Jul 21, 2012 23:38:05 GMT dragoon13833 said:

I say that because grey knights auto pass psychic tests means they don't suffer perils of the warp because Typhus doesnt suffer perils of the warp. Page 55 of the chaos space marine codex states that 'Typhus always passes his psychic tests when using these two powers (and so is also immune to the effects of perils of the warp)'. I see it that if he is immune so are the grey knights as the rules are worded in the same way, that they auto pass psychic tests.

Nice find! Circumstantial evidence is some respects but given how clear this one is plenty good

Coredump, god bless you for sticking this one out! The mental gymnastics of some people never ceases to amaze but you keep trying to calmly explain how the rules work to them anyway like a true teacher

Nurgelz I know you have managed to convince yourself that your some kind of enlightened logical lone ranger, sweeping in with cold a hard dialetic razor and skinjing the arguement to lay its perfectly separated and grouped entraills out before us in a dazzling display of objective truth......

.....however you come across as a bit of a self congratulating asshat the way you write I'm afraid. You might be a great guy, but you write with a passive agressive venom and have violated your own claim to be only interested in the "truth" on so many occasions this thread it hurts my head . If you and those argueing fail to acknowlage the core of coredumps arguement then your entire arguement vecommes moot.

This is how this conversation would go with my playgroup:

The summary with the 5 steps we follow specifies that "psyker must now take psychic test". Okie dokie so we look at the the bit that tells us what that entails.....

...."psyker must now PASS psychic test", ok so we auto passed that w00t.....

.....what's this about perils? "if the roll for the psychic test...." Oh well we didn't roll on the psytest so there's no double 1 or 6 to worry about. The rules didn't tell us we had to roll, just HOW to take a psytest by rolling, and that we are required only to PASS it.

....cool your go mate.....

Amazing eh?

Also "where in the rules does it say hormagaunts can't fly?" Inspired! trolololololol

[wisdomseyes1]

Also "where in the rules does it say hormagaunts can't fly?" Inspired! trolololololol

Cordump uses outside literary examples a lot, and often it helps make his point. Sometimes he does try to hard, like this particular instance for example, where he chose to fabricate an example where the answer is of course it doesn't say that, and it would be idiotic to state otherwise, where he fully understood the other arguments point of view and didn't agree.

Something I feel to be very clever to get people on your side of the argument. But we all know how correct one is isn't judged on the number of followers but rather the validity of their arguments. Cordump will never lose an argument on the hive because he is both good at swaying people to vote with him (thus causing the other argument to begin to have to do additional work to appease different people. Seldom is it not an army against a single individual) and his arguments are believable to the point of validity.

When he said that, he really should have said gargoyles because he knew my argument ad he knew that that particular statement meant nothing in the argument at hand. He chose hormagaunt because he knew more people would get impacted by it, thought it is a lesson that need to be taught. 40k is a permissive game. Your models are jut bits of plastic until the rules tell you it *can* do something.

I know I promised not to post further on the topic, an I didn't. I posted about the argument styles being used

Nurgelz I know you have managed to convince yourself that your some kind of enlightened logical lone ranger, sweeping in with cold a hard dialetic razor and skinjing the arguement to lay its perfectly separated and grouped entraills out before us in a dazzling display of objective truth......

.....however you come across as a bit of a self congratulating asshat the way you write I'm afraid. You might be a great guy, but you write with a passive agressive venom and have violated your own claim to be only interested in the "truth" on so many occasions this thread it hurts my head . If you and those argueing fail to acknowlage the core of coredumps arguement then your entire arguement vecommes moot.

Throwing around vocabulary of higher levels than the avergage member of our community doesnt make you smarter than them, and doing so in the way you did only makes you sound like an ass. Projecting a persona of narcissistic attention seeking on a person who didn't agree or could have very well been playing devil's advocate (as I often do) is not okay. Not to me, anyway. So remember this moment, because whatever respect I may have had for you is gone.

And you also understand that the othe side of the argument never acknowledged the core concepts of nurglitchs argument either. So, every post on this thread is moot then.

So, sir, I bid you a good evening.

[chairmanwoo]

@ wizdomeyes1: the burden of proof is on your side of the arguement. The rules clearly state a requirement to pass a psytest not necessarily to have to roll any dice. You can counter pontificate all you want, Coredump has been patiently banging his head against that wall for 8 pages now and all the other side has managed to do is sidestep the issue and attempt to focus on semantics which while related are subordinate categories in the procedure we are following. Notice how your counter to me consisted of a semi personal attack (which is fine I did the same ) and some nonesense about an example of the rules being permissive in nature being somehow not appropriate to an arguement that is based on exactly that...... Hormagaunts not flying was simply an elegant and slightly ammusing way of demonstrating how 40k rules tell you what you must and can do, not what you can't. It's pointless asking for the rule that says you don't have to roll, only the one that says you do! The psytest rules at no point state you must roll, only that you must take and pass the psytest (& what happens on a double 1 or 6 should you roll).

Summary states you must take psytest...
Explanation in the rules for what this entails state only the requirement to PASS the test, and then explains HOW one establishes this by making a leadership test. Not that one MUST take a leadership test, the only direct order in those rules is to PASS, the test itself is described procedurally not authoritatively.

Also resorting to personal remarks like I did will get you nowhere if your arguement is wearing no trousers! Everyone would be like "I don't know what he's talking about anymore cause they guys got no trousers on!"