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Post by kippawah on Jul 18, 2012 17:09:20 GMT
This argument is ridiculous. I can't believe it has gone on for 4 pages. Grey Knight units with brotherhood banners don't take psychic tests to use their force weapons because they automatically pass. It's the same thing as fearless units not taking morale tests since they automatically pass as well. How often does a CSM player have to say "Thank goodness my Plague Marines are fearless because I just rolled box cars on their morale test!!" Not often huh? Didn't think so. If I saw anyone trying to argue otherwise during a game I would feel very bad for that person who is trying so desperately to create an advantage where one doesn't exist. The rules just don't work that way as coredump has explained time and again on this thread. I think you misunderstood the rules. Is there anything that happens as a consequence of taking a leadership test aside from determining if you pass or fail? You can't equate taking a morale test to manifesting a psychic power. It seems quite easy to understand that in order to ACTIVATE a force weapon ( like the Grey Knights we're using for example), you must make, and pass a psychic test in order to do so. Under the Bro Banner, it says "THE UNIT WILL AUTOMATICALLY PASS IT'S PSYCHIC TEST TO ACTIVATE ITS FORCE WEAPONS." Where does it say that you don't have to roll? I feel, because there are more elements to having this roll, than just a simple pass/fail, it doesn't negate having to still make the roll. |
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Post by nurglitch on Jul 18, 2012 17:15:21 GMT
That's the thing, the rules do state that Hormagaunts move as Infantry, and nothing states that they move as either Jump Infantry, Flyers, or Flying Monstrous Creature. Therefore they move as Infantry.
Likewise, the rules state that manifesting a psychic power requires that the psyker take a psychic test ("The Psyker must now take a Psychic test"). There is no rule saying that the Brotherhood Banner excludes the Grey Knights from taking a psychic test, just that they automatically pass it to activate their force weapons.
Therefore Grey Knights activating a Brotherhood Banner have, without the Shadow in the Warp, two opportunities to pass the psychic test and suffer Perils of the Warp: 1,1 and 6,6.
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Post by maeloke on Jul 18, 2012 17:44:21 GMT
maeloke: I'd be interested in reviewing the statistics you've compiled leading you to judge that I post irrelevancies with uncommon frequency. The notion of whether the Brotherhood Banner requires a psychic test is certainly relevant to the question of how Shadow in the Warp works in the 6th edition of the game. That said, this thread isn't about me, or your opinion of my writing style. I will concede the point with respect to your writing. It *is* off topic; I was attempting to make an observation which might help you in your debates. Pursuing it further will apparently drag me into just such a one, so I will pass and forfeit the discussion  . As for this topic: The OP was a general "How does Shadow In The Warp work?" which was promptly explained. You're the one who got in there with the Brotherhood Banner corner case, which while generally related, is better discussed under the larger umbrella of "When the outcome of a test is described as automatic, do abilities and effects triggering from the die rolls associated with that test still apply?" While your answer is obvious to you, the opposite is just as obvious to many others, which means the question is an area of doubt. As this thread has gone on to discuss, it's relevant to a great number of rules, and I'd love an authoritative answer to it as much as you. But we don't have one, and the reason people often aren't receptive to your tack is because you're splitting logical hairs in sentences written by soft-headed GW people who just don't present as the sort to have put that kind of deliberate thought into it. I didn't mean that soft-headed part. They're clever chaps that just want to tell a good story, and don't playtest enough. |
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Post by fragile on Jul 18, 2012 18:40:44 GMT
Nurglitch delights on delving into game theory and logic arguments when arguing rules cases Can you give any other example of an automatic success that still requires a roll? Do you units that automatically pass a leadership test still roll for ID from boneswords? Posts like these need to be presented to GW to see the heated arguments over the issue to make sure they are included in their FAQ so they can rule one way or another. |
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Post by nurglitch on Jul 18, 2012 18:51:11 GMT
fragile:
One out of two ain't bad. Game theory is inapplicable to the matters of reading and interpreting rules. Its application is tactics and strategy. Logic is supremely applicable to dealing with rules, and it's a useful tool for identifying points of contention, and clarifying them. Hence I delight in employing such a tool despite its complete lack of utility in resolving disagreements. Such tasks require other tools...
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Post by kippawah on Jul 18, 2012 18:54:05 GMT
Nurglitch delights on delving into game theory and logic arguments when arguing rules cases Can you give any other example of an automatic success that still requires a roll? Do you units that automatically pass a leadership test still roll for ID from boneswords? Posts like these need to be presented to GW to see the heated arguments over the issue to make sure they are included in their FAQ so they can rule one way or another. While I agree, these things need clarification... The instance with the Boneswords thing... I have always treated it like how the Doom's spirit leech works. It's a separate leadership test from any morale, pinning, etc test, and no unit is exempt from taking this test. Those units that can choose to pass/fail leadership tests or are immune to them, normally still have a LD value, and there is usually something said about what tests specifically, or what actions (that normally would require a LD test) they are exempt from. |
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Post by nurglitch on Jul 18, 2012 19:01:01 GMT
kippawah:
There are no units in Warhammer 40,000 that are immune to Leadership tests, not counting units without a Ld characteristic. Even Fearless mere grants immunity to three sorts of leadership test: Pinning tests, Morale checks, and Fear. Just pointing that out.
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Post by coredump on Jul 18, 2012 19:04:29 GMT
Nowhere in the rules does it state that you can avoid taking a psychic test to manifest a psychic power. Again, you are asking people to prove a negative. Nowhere in the rules does it state you can avoid sacrificing a unit to manifest a psychic power the onus is on you to prove that the rules say what you have to do. you keep asking people to prove what you don't have to do. The rules are clear, you have to pass a psy test... it never says you have to roll the dice if you can pass it another way. If you want to force people to roll the dice, you need to find a rule that says that. Again, there is no such rule, and there is no need for one. "I would like to see the rule that says automatically hitting means that a model cannot automatically wound." You can't prove a negative. You need to provide a rule that says you still need to roll the dice even if the test is already passed. Where does it say that you don't have to roll? I feel, because there are more elements to having this roll, than just a simple pass/fail, it doesn't negate having to still make the roll. Again, more of the same. The rules are permissive, it tells you what you can do, and what you have to do. It doesn't tell you what you don't have to do. It is up to you to prove that you do have to roll the dice, even if you have already passed the test. |
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Post by nurglitch on Jul 18, 2012 19:20:22 GMT
Yes, I keep providing it:
"Manifesting Psychic Powers
3. Take Psychic Test
The Psyker must now take a Psychic test."
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Post by coredump on Jul 18, 2012 19:20:34 GMT
That's the thing, the rules do state that Hormagaunts move as Infantry, and nothing states that they move as either Jump Infantry, Flyers, or Flying Monstrous Creature. Therefore they move as Infantry. But that wasn't what you asked, you asked us to prove "where does it say I can't", so that is what we asked you. No. They. Don't. This has been pointed out to you at least 4 times now, and you blithely ignore it every time. Just because a fact does not agree with your presumption, does not mean it can be ignored. The *summary* of the rules provides that as a shorthand version of the process. The *actual* rules give more accurate and more detailed information. The actual rules state that you need to pass a psychic test. That is all. It never says you have to take one. If you continue to ignore this, the most logical conclusion is that you would rather propagate erroneous information than be proven wrong. (Actually even if the rules did say what you claim,it would not help your case any. But that is now irrelevant, since the rules do not say what you claim.) |
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Post by nurglitch on Jul 18, 2012 19:24:17 GMT
The rules on p.67 governing manifesting psychic powers say psykers must take a psychic test; they must pass this psychic test at step 3 to move on to step 4 ("Deny the Witch") and step 5 ("Resolve Psychic Power").
There is no rule which says that automatically passing a psychic test means that a psyker cannot suffer Perils of the Warp. Therefore a unit of Grey Knights using the Brotherhood Banner to activate their force weapons must take a psychic test, which they will automatically pass, and may or may not suffer Perils of the Warp.
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Post by coredump on Jul 18, 2012 19:25:14 GMT
Can you give any other example of an automatic success that still requires a roll? Kind of. Gets Hot triggers on rolling a 'to hit' roll of a 1. If you use a blast weapon, there is no need to roll "to hit". Therefore there is not chance to roll a 1. Thus GW instigated a specific rule to require you to roll a D6 anyway, to see if Gets Hot triggers. Notice they made a specific rule, and not a generic "always roll dice" rule, nor any specific such rules for Blinding Venom nor Perils. |
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Post by Jabberwocky on Jul 18, 2012 19:26:43 GMT
Yes, I keep providing it: "Manifesting Psychic Powers 3. Take Psychic Test The Psyker must now take a Psychic test." Check the Eldar codex and recent FAQ. Warlocks don't test to manifest their powers. It says so specifically. |
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Post by nurglitch on Jul 18, 2012 19:35:33 GMT
Jabberwocky:
That's an interesting point. Going by memory, which is usually wrong, Warlocks don't have the "Psyker" special rule, and their 'powers' aren't psychic powers by the rules.
At Mastery Level 0 they cannot use any psychic powers, which is alright because by the rules they don't have psychic powers.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 18, 2012 20:00:20 GMT
I am honestly on the side of the argument here that says to check for perils of the warp. I do believe "passing a test automatically" is not the same as not needing to roll for it. I believe in other parts of the rules we have agreed that in situations where you roll for something but always get the same result (like the fateeweaver rerolls failed saves and the swarmlord makes him reroll succesful ones, which means you would roll the dice twice, so we just roll it once assuming the first roll didnt matter [they 'cancel out'])
in this situation we have "i always count as passing" but that doesnt really means that the effects of perils of the warp dont exist. not unless someone wants to cite a rule where perils of the warp stops a psker from activating the power.
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