Shadow in the Warp, 6th ed problem

[nurglitch]

kippawah:

It's fiction, there is no way of determining accuracy. There's basically just style and feel, for the purposes of telling stories. Aaron Demski-Bowden, one of the better Black Library authors, has some useful stuff to say about it on his blog, if you're inclined to look it up.

The problem with using background-accuracy is that the background changes to provide justification for rules changes, rather than the other way around. The notion of being able to take casualties from anywhere in the unit in 5th edition was justified on opposite grounds for casualties being strictly from models in range and line of sight of attackers in 4th edition, for example.

lostminds:

No, not really. What I am saying is that Psychic Tests test for two separate things: Passing or failing psychic tests, and Perils of the Warp, and that automatic success at passing psychic tests does not confer immunity to Perils of the Warp - you still have to roll, and automatically passing means a roll of 12 passes the test, as well as triggering Perils of the Warp.

Along the way I've noticed that the popular practice of skipping rolls that entail automatic results isn't textually supported, and extends beyond the argument about the specific interaction of the Brotherhood Banner and Shadow in the Warp. So I started another thread about the more general problem.

[maugrim]

Yes - Creatures with Move Through Cover automatically pass their Dangerous Terrain checks. BRB pg 40.

Oh, and there would be no chance of Deny the Witch - neither Hammerhand (since it isn't targetting you) nor Force (Specifically states no Deny the Witch) would allow rolls.

And yes - basically the Banner allows them to channel their will unerringly into their Force Weapons. That's why you pay 25 points for it (and it gives them +1 attacks).

[nurglitch]

maugrim:

No, Move Through Cover automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests, meaning you could roll a dice, but no result will mean a wound, which as I continue to point out means that while in practice rolling a dice is a waste of time, nothing in the rules says that you don't roll. It's just convenient not to do so.

There's a relevant difference between automatically passing a dangerous terrain test and automatically passing a psychic test: the number of outcomes.

There are two outcomes to a dangerous terrain test: (1) Pass, and (2) Fail, save against 1 wound. Where it is automatically passed, then there is only one outcome, and again, in practical terms, a waste of time to roll a dice.

There are four outcomes to a psychic test: (1) Pass and Perils, (2) Pass and no Perils, (3) Fail and no Perils, (4) Fail and Perils. Where it is automatically passed , then there are still two outcomes: 1 & 2. You still need to roll the dice because that single roll is still determining one state of the game over another.

[fragile]

Nurg, your argument that you now roll a die on Dangerous Terrain tests is becoming laughable. The number of outcomes has no effect on whether you roll or not.

[wisdomseyes1]

Jul 20, 2012 1:06:44 GMT fragile said:

Nurg, your argument that you now roll a die on Dangerous Terrain tests is becoming laughable. The number of outcomes has no effect on whether you roll or not.

Please dont post unless what you are saying actually has substance or an impact on the conversation. It bothers me to see your first sentence and disagree, then have no clue what you are saying in the second sentence.

His point is looking into the english language and seeing how it works. there is a difference between "not rolling" and "counting every roll as a success" and if you can not see that distinction make an argument understanding what he is saying, your opinion will not change.

If something says "you automatically pass invuln saves for perils of the warp" it is different than saying "you can not be subject to perils of the warp"

In the first sentence, perils of the warp still occurs for then purposes of anything that cares. the second, it just says nothing ever happened. Functionally, they serve the same purpose except for things that care about the above.

The entire argument he is making is that here is a difference between passing and not even having to test. It isnt a laughable argument and I havent read anything on this 7 page thread so far that has suggested, effectively, the opposite.

The only arguments here really have come down to "well this is what I think" and that includes cordumps arguments though no one has said anything on it because he is the only one save yori who points out the personal opinions added to arguments. So, I will stick with past rulings we have used where we understood rolling was insignificant so we skipped it, but we knew we still rolled. it just ever mattered till now. I bet I can find a thread in my history if I dig enough, where even cordump would have been on the opposite side of the argument (in the terms of something like the swarmlord vs the fateweaver, very likely)

[coredump]

Wisdom, it is laughable because the entire argument *only* has a basis if one insists that a short summary at the front of the section overrides the actual rules spelled out in the many following paragraphs.
And you have to be willing to disregard how this situation is handled in every other similar situation.
And you have to be willing to disregard that the only time it happens otherwise, it was specifically spelled out in the rules.

[wisdomseyes1]

And you have to be willing to disregard how this situation is handled in every other similar situation.

Swarmlords bonesaber. Units struck in close combat must reroll successful invulnerable saves.
Karios, the fateweaver. all friendly units within 6" of it benefit from reroll failed saves.

In this situation, we roll twice. Why? because no matter the result of the first set of dice, you will have to reroll every single die. so, for the purposes of simplicity, they cancel out" because the first roll doesnt matter. does the first roll not exist or is it just insignificant because nothing effects it. There is no rule of the game that cares what the result of that first dice roll is. it saves time to just roll one time.

with a situation of automatically passing dangerous terrain tests, we do not roll. Does it say anywhere in the rules not to roll on things you pass automatically? not that I am aware of, if you can find that I will concede the argument to you (and if you have aleady cited it I am sorry I missed it, 7 page thread and all ) So then, why do we not roll in that situation if the rules tell us to? because it doesnt matter. becausse there is no rule in the game that cares what your roll is. If there was a "on a roll of 3during a dangerous terrain test this unit gains fearless until the beginning of your next turn" there would again be an argument there, but no such rule exists so there is no issue with just saying a roll doesnt exist.


You always say "40k is a permissive game, you dont have to prove what the game doesnt tell you you're not allowed to do, you have to prove that the game tells you your allowed to do it" but you seem to be having a hard time in this situation practicing what you preach.

Does it say in the rules you have to take a psychic test to perform psychic power (assuming we disregard the steps listed in the rulebook itself, an odd thing to do when you consider you are saying the rulebook has incorrect rules in it. If they put it in the rulebook, its likely because it directly correlates with the rules given in the book)

I assume the answer to that is "yes, It does" (because honestly if the only place it says to take a psychic test is in that step by step instructions list you should probably just throw out your argument altogether and say psychic powers cant be performed in any situation without this banner)

Now ask you to please cite to me, just 1 passage, in any part of the rulebook, where it says "You do not need to roll for tests you automatically pass"

similar situations dont matter because they dont contain an element that actually looks at what you rolled. They all have no additional rules to look at where psychic powers do.

I like you cordump, but I am having a hard time buying what you are selling, and that doesnt happen often, haha. Not sure why this question didnt come up in 5th edition, auto passing and psychic tests to the extent we are using worked the same as the situation we are looking at now

[Deathnid]

:3

[fragile]

Well Wisdom, Im not exactly sure what your trying to say in parts here. Your bonesword example really doesnt fit what we are arguing though.

Swarmlords bonesaber. Units struck in close combat must reroll successful invulnerable saves.
Karios, the fateweaver. all friendly units within 6" of it benefit from reroll failed saves.

In this situation, we roll twice.

This really doesnt apply and GW has errata for it saying to roll once.

with a situation of automatically passing dangerous terrain tests, we do not roll.

Nor in any other automatic pass situation. The only comparable one is Gets Hot, where they have a rule that says you still roll for the chance of a 1. If they clarified for Gets Hot, they would have for Perils if they wanted it still to roll.

Now assume you roll on MTC. If you roll a 1 you would take a wound. Show me the rule that says if you roll a 1 on a difficult terrain test that you dont take a wound because you have MTC (effectively passing it). Once you roll that die your bound by the result unless you can find a rule that says you arent.

Precedent for automatic successes is there is no die roll. Now the argument is turning to every auto success still rolls a die.

[wisdomseyes1]

This really doesnt apply and GW has errata for it saying to roll once.

erratas and FAQ's are not the same thing. Also, can you remind me which FAQ that was, I just skimmed the Eldar/tyranid/daemons and seemed to missed it but I remember the rule. All it says is "they cancel"

Nor in any other automatic pass situation. The only comparable one is Gets Hot, where they have a rule that says you still roll for the chance of a 1. If they clarified for Gets Hot, they would have for Perils if they wanted it still to roll.

wait so you expect clarification on every single rule? You do understand that when you clarify something, that means you said it in the first place but made it easier to understand. They foresaw the thing with gets hot because every army has it and clarified before hand because they knew it would likely come up (additionally, they needed the rules for blast)

The only other unit in the game that can autopass psychic tests was FAQ'd to not take psychic tests, so we cant compare it to that.

PLEASE, again. enlighten me where it says in the rulebook you dont take tests for things you pass automatically. I can show you exactly where it says *to* take a test and i can *not* find exceptions to that. Gets hot only furthers the point because had forgotten about it (mostly because there isnt much that lets you automatically hit baring tank shocks last edition) but it is the only rule that has been brought up that cares what the roll is regardless of if you auto pass.

I will, again, concede the argument if anyone can show me a rule that says not to take the test. This even includes auto passing dangerous terrain tests, because the point still stands you likely do have t take the tests but the results dont matter s we skip it, not the rules *allow* us to skip it

[coredump]

Jul 20, 2012 7:49:54 GMT wisdomseyes1 said:

And you have to be willing to disregard how this situation is handled in every other similar situation.

Swarmlords bonesaber. Units struck in close combat must reroll successful invulnerable saves.
Karios, the fateweaver. all friendly units within 6" of it benefit from reroll failed saves.

Nothing in the Fateweaver nor Swarmlord rules talks about "auto pass" or "auto fail", so the situations are not the same.

There is a 'need' to roll all the dice, and reroll the dice. But since it doesn't change any results, you can skip the result. Similarly, if you have a single Twin-linked gun, the rules are roll, and reroll. But you can save time by doing them together.

The 'auto-pass' rules do not say you must still roll.. you are not just 'saving time', nothing is saying to make those rolls at all.

with a situation of automatically passing dangerous terrain tests, we do not roll. Does it say anywhere in the rules not to roll on things you pass automatically?

Again, this is backwards. You are asking me to prove a negative.
"Does it say anywhere that hormagaunts can't fly?"

The issue is that there is no rule saying you have to take the test, if you have already passed the test.

You always say "40k is a permissive game, you dont have to prove what the game doesnt tell you you're not allowed to do, you have to prove that the game tells you your allowed to do it" but you seem to be having a hard time in this situation practicing what you preach.

Not at all. The rules say you need to pass a psy test. The rules never say anything about having to roll the dice even if the test is already passed.

Does it say in the rules you have to take a psychic test to perform psychic power (assuming we disregard the steps listed in the rulebook itself, an odd thing to do when you consider you are saying the rulebook has incorrect rules in it. If they put it in the rulebook, its likely because it directly correlates with the rules given in the book)

I assume the answer to that is "yes, It does" (because honestly if the only place it says to take a psychic test is in that step by step instructions list you should probably just throw out your argument altogether and say psychic powers cant be performed in any situation without this banner)

I am sorry, I really don't know what you are saying in this part.

Now ask you to please cite to me, just 1 passage, in any part of the rulebook, where it says "You do not need to roll for tests you automatically pass"

In general, the rules don't tell you want you 'don't' have to do. (Show me in the rules where you don't have to stand on one foot during your turn)
In the section dealing with psychic tests, it clearly states that you must "pass" a psychic test. It does not mention having to take that test... nor having to roll dice. (Those are the usual ways of passing the test, but not the only ways.) Once you have passed that test... you have fulfilled the requirement.

So by using the banner, I have filled the condition listed in the rules for passing a psy test. Now you have to find the rule that says I still need to take the test, and roll the dice; eventhough the test is passed and the condition is met.

[wisdomseyes1]

Again, this is backwards. You are asking me to prove a negative.
"Does it say anywhere that hormagauntsGargoyles can't fly?"

The issue is that there is no rule saying you have to take the test, if you have already passed the test.

Fixed to actually work with the discussion.

I am asking you, based on the fact the rules say to take a psychic test (similar to the rules say that gargoyles can fly) where is the rule that says "dont take test in this situation" (more specifically, dont take tests when you already pass them)

Not at all. The rules say you need to pass a psy test. The rules never say anything about having to roll the dice even if the test is already passed.

1) this is a key example of what i meant. you are saying what the rules dont say.
2) this sounds like your arguing that a test isnt determined by dice rolling but rather the methodology, and auto passing is a method of taking a psychic test in its own right. This makes your rgument a little more understandable but not correct
3) The rules say to take a psychic test (and define a psychic test as a leadership roll) and it does not, to my knowledge, provide exceptions to that.

In general, the rules don't tell you want you 'don't' have to do. (Show me in the rules where you don't have to stand on one foot during your turn)

already covered I understand this point. not going into it again, just read the above.

In the section dealing with psychic tests, it clearly states that you must "pass" a psychic test. It does not mention having to take that test... nor having to roll dice. (Those are the usual ways of passing the test, but not the only ways.) Once you have passed that test... you have fulfilled the requirement.

So that list isnt actually part of the rules, it is a false advertisement?

I can not completely argue this point until later today, so expect a more detailed response later (rulebook is at my friends house) However, your point does make sense from this perspective.

you define a psychic test as ANY methodology of passing it, where as the rulebook (and myself) defines it as a leadership roll.

[coredump]

This will obviously have to wait until you can see the rulebook yourself.
But yes, I am saying that the detailed paragraphs giving the rules are the rules to be followed. And the shorthanded summary list at the beginning is meant as a summary reference, and does not carry the same weight as the actual described rules. Summaries, by their very nature, tend to cut corners and generalize.


The actual section of the rules dedicated to Psychic Tests, on the right hand side of p.67. Very first sentence:
"The Psyker must now pass a Psychic test to see if he can control the power he's calling upon."

Passing the test is the required condition. *In General* that happens by having to actually take the test and roll some dice. But the requirement is not taking and passing, it is stated as just passing the test.
In addition it states: "If the test is passed,the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved"
Again, no mention of having to roll dice or take the test, the condition is 'If passed...'


Look at p.12. There is another summary, this time of the shooting phase. Those are pretty accurate for what happens 'in general', but there is plenty of room for exceptions and contradictions; that is obvious once you get passed the summary and actually read the sections with the detailed rules.

[wisdomseyes1]

The only thing I will look for then is an instance other than the summery where defines a psychic test as a roll against your leadership.

If I can not find that, then I do believe you are likely correct. If it does, however, define it as a leadership roll somewhere in the psychic section (which would assume it does because otherwise they ONLY put the methodology on how to take a psychic test in the summery and that makes little sense) then it is not beyond argument to say that the roll does happen and the results are all passing results, because it defines exactly what a "psychic test" is.

also, apparently my friend wont be home until late tonight, so I guess my actual arguments if such do exist will have to wait. And I will attempt to restrain myself from posting further on this topic until my facts are more concrete.

[maugrim]

So... one side is arguing that because it doesn't say --take the test--, you don't have to. The other side is arguing that because is doesn't say *don't* --take the test--, you have to.

Beyond the conflict with other autofail/succeed issues I already pointed out, here's another. BRB pg 7, Basic versus Advanced. "Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules." Also, directly under that is where it states: "On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence."

So, to apply these: 1) The Psychic powers are Advanced rules. 2) The rules they have for rolling for Psychic powers supreceed the Basic rules. 3) The codex rule states they automatically pass the test.

When we arrive at Step 3, which is the Psychic Test, and it states "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved..." - the Banner's rules would trigger. Then we would go on to Step 4, Deny (which is skipped here because its not targetted at an enemy unit) then to Step 5, Resolve.

Since the more "Advanced" rule out of the Codex would superceed the BRB rules, the autopass would superceed Step 3 on page 67. Just like things like Blinding Venom, Fearless, Move Through Cover, Hammer of Wrath, Rending, and other automaticallies.