Nidvirgin Seeking Guidance

[gigasnail]

if you're footslogging the tyrant, give him some guard, sir. might not be *as* important now with the changes to how cover is determined, but still probably necessary as he's going to draw lots of fire.

[DukeMantis]

Hrrm i had hoped armoured shell+regen would allow me to drop T-guard and save a few points...

[coredump]

My big problem, is you are spending a lot of points for a model that will move 6" a turn, and shoot one mediocre gun each turn.

How much do you expect to accomplish with the HVC? And is that worth the 280pts for the HT? (not 255)


Play around with the HGaunts. Personally, I prefer them at 10pts each, especially now that we can more easily glance tanks to death. 10 HGs on the charge, 30 attacks, 20 hits, 3+ glances, dead transport. If you are able to surround the transport, also (mostly) dead passengers.
Also, since multi assaulting has taken quite a nerf.... you can keep the broods smaller.

I see no reason to spore in stealers. Save the points and infiltrate or Outflank. With the new rules, this anti-BLord player has turned into a pro-BLord player.

I think you can shake loose some points to get more than 10 devilgaunts, and then give them the spore from the stealers.

Raveners really want rending claws. But you can also get away with 4-5; so you can save points there.

Rippers are 3-10, you can't take just one.

Warrior devourers are fine, but if you have the points, I think the 5pt upgrade for Deathspitters is worth it.

Synapse is not nearly as important as it was last week. I would drop the Prime from the Trygon, give it Toxin sacs.

Onslaught may or may not be worthwhile, check and see how it plays out for you. I would tack on TS and AG so the gaunts get those benefits.

[DukeMantis]

Thanks for the feedback that was very concise, just what i wanted!

I have to ask...Whats a HvC?

This list was written prior to seeing the new rules in detail (my rulebook still hasnt arrived!) so i will probably need a reshuffle, regardless thank you for pointing out some of my dodgy choices i will rethink them carefully.

My thinking for the way the Tyrant was tooled was for it to merely move up with the mainstay of the mob trying to pick off anything worth shooting. I was informed warriors werent very good in the previous incarnation of 40k so ive only taken those three as a cheap extra synapse option that will probably hang out with the hive guard.

In retrospect and from reading several of the new posts that popped up today it seems like taking a shooty yet survivable HT may not be as useful as taking a mean flyrant (although in truth part of my decision not to flyrant was that the model is bloody huge and im not sure id have space for a large gargoyle escort etc). You gave me some good ideas for point shaving on the raveners, ripper swarm and a few other things so thank you for that!

Alot of people seem to like deathspitters, i may re-equip with those too...

[Inquisitor Stingray]

Upon entering the sixth edition of Warhammer 40, this song plays in the background:



On a more serious note, I agree with coredump's advice. A HVC is a Heavy Venom Cannon and while the S9 is indeed tempting, lack of high BS on the Tyrant combined with the unpredictable nature of Blast weapons, I find that it is a poor choice. For ten points less you can take a set of TWIN-LINKED Devourers who with six shots at S6 and no penalty for having AP- will be quite good for Glance-killing vehicles.

I rarely field a Hive Tyrant, which is a damn shame seeing as it is one of my favourite models, not just among Tyranids but in the whole game! However, with the promotion to being a Flying Monstrous Creature and the release of a new model, this guy this just get a lot more fun and tempting to try out. Still, if we're talking a < 1500 point range, I suggest taking a Tyranid Prime instead. If you already have the Tyrant, you can just use his model, as long as you remind people that he isen't a Monstrous Creature.

Indeed, the Flyrant is huuuge, but I believe that Wings do not count as part of the model when checking for cover. Also, while cover is only 5+, it is a lot easier to now. This, of course also speaks in favour of a walking Tyrant with Guards.

Deathspitters on Warriors are still good, if not even better than before, especially if you stick aforementioned Prime to the squad, boosting their Balistic Skill.

[DukeMantis]

Thanks alot for the info, this is really helping me identify where im wasting points and what weapons can be relied upon in the nid list.

I truly love Tyranid Warriors (the models, the fluff), but i was lead to believe they wernt viable anymore, has that changed in this new edition?

Im getting the vibe that the rule of thumb is foot-tyrant should come with Tyrant Guard in almost ever situation, so its likely a near 400 point commitment to do it right, a bit steep in 2k considering how many other big monsters i want to field (ilovetrygons).

[Inquisitor Stingray]

Sadly, while our Monsters will have an easier time getting Cover Saves, the units who really needed a boost, that is anything Toughness 4 and multiple Wounds, are still as fragile as before. The new Wound Allocation makes for some slightly useful tactics, but a Krak Missile will still take down a Tyranid Warrior in a heartbeat. You could throw Feel No Pain at the Warriors for a helpful boost against small arms fire, but it is still negated by things that cause Instant Death.

I usually run a brood of three or four Warriors, armed with Deathspitters and sometimes Toxin Sacs to go with that. One of them has a Barbed Strangeler. I don't expect them to do much, and thus they rarely disappoint me. I find that the Poison Sacs are worth the investment, though at other times you could dump them and the Deathspitters in favour of Boneswords. I find that without any kind of Biomorphs or equipment, Warriors aren't worth mentioning in Close Combat. After all, a salvo of Devourers is almost as good, and the opponent doesn't get to fire back at you. Well, not in the same turn, at least. I once had a vanilla squad of Khorne Bezerkers assault my squad of vanilla Tyranid Warriors. Whenever models were killed, the combat resolution ended up being a draw, and for five turns they just stood and stared at each other.

Use Warriors for cheap Synapse coverage, playing the role of a Hormagaunt and Termagant mixed together: okay shooting, okay melee. However, loading them with Boneswords, Lashwhips, Poison Sacs and Adrenal Glands and then killing your opponent's best unit is a one-trick-one-time pony. From there, he'll just gun them down from Turn 1, whereas if you keep them cheap and incognito, they'll probably survive.

You are indeed right that the Tyrant, whether walking or flying, is a huge investment. I haven't seen a single Deathstar (Tyrant/Swarmlord + retinue of Guards and a Prime) army in months, though this may change, now that most have their precious Powerweapons reduced to AP3.

[DukeMantis]

Thanks alot for the clarification, im starting to think that i was easily romanced by the idea of fielding a Tyrant without thinking about how to do it right. At 2k if im not willing to shell out the points to do it properly im probably better off with a couple of primes.

I love the idea of the sword toting gangbanger tyranid warriors but i also know what you suggested, the enemy will pwn them as soon as they can, i guess you could put some in a spore (not sure if you can assault out of a spore, sounds too good to be true) but there is probably cheaper or more viable ways to do this trick.

My vision for warriors is just as you have suggested, cheap synapse cover with nothing too flashy upgrades wise. I was planning on just taking one unit of three but am conflicted over there role, considering how easy it is to shoot them i was planning on using them for backfield synapse control of my Hiveguard, the two units hanging out together to form some sort of Nid devastator equation, with the warriors ready to defend anything that tries to assault the Hive Guard to stop them shooting. Im also wondering about the merits of a second unit of 3-5 to run up the field with my horde of gaunts and tervigon, close combat tooled - in the hope of supporting my assault. Alternatively as i plan to field two units of two hive guard, i could make two cheap units of three warriors (with the medium shoot/fight build you suggested) and assign each warrior unit to each Hive Guard unit in different positions of the board, to give better arcs of fire etc.

Im dont like termagaunts but i recognise they will be a very useful part of my army, so i will just take a devourer unit (notsure what size is good) to allow the terv as a troops choice, do you think only taking one terv is a cop out? I think id prefer to spend the points on trygons and loads more Hgaunts....

Lastly on Hgaunts, i was initially all exciteable about fielding two big units of thirty, but im wondering if that could would hamstring me in the new rules, perhaps two or three units of 16ish?

Any input would be much appreciated! Thanks alot.

[Inquisitor Stingray]

You're on the right track regarding the Tyrant. That is not to say that a lone Tyrant with no retinue is completely trash, but he costs as much as two Primes and that's before you start pumping him with juicy upgrades. He is also slow: aginst gunline armies, he will never see combat and he probably won't be able to catch any vehicles either. Furthermore, if you give him a gun, the Heavy Venom Cannon for example, he has to forfeit Running, making him even more unlikely to see Close Combat, the thing which he excells at.

Still, in friendly play, a lone Tyrant may be more viable and the Flyrant is going to see a lot more use, being essentially a brand new kind of unit with some interesting Special Rules.

Warriors and Hive Guards go well together, a Tyranid symbiosis of sorts. The Warriors give the Guards Fearless, and more importantly, allowing them to fire things out of sight, and in return the Guards can blast off nasty Lascannons/Krak Missiles that would otherwise kill the Warriors.

The idea of an advancing group of Killer-Warriors is very cool 'n Niddy, but as you point out, they are fragile and will be subject to a lot of shooting. Most armies have a way for taking out Warriors. Marines have their Missile Launchers, Necrons have Immortals with AP4 and so on. With random charge lengths, the Tyranid Warriors are a bit more likely to reach combat, but having no Fleet still hurts.

I, myself love Termagants, especially when used with Hormies. They have different purposes but working together well. I always run my Gaunts units in sizes of sixteen. Twenty would probably be better, but the number 16 has been stuck in my head since I started playing Fantasy, years and years ago. As for the Tervigon, most people follow the rule that says: "If you bring one, bring two." Simply because once you opponent gets to know what the Tervigon is capable of, he won't let it out of sight. Again, the questions boils down to how competitive your opponents are. If you face WAAC Grey Knight and Space Wolf players, then yes, redundancy is needed. If not, you should be fine.

[DukeMantis]

I think my opponents will be a mixture of experienced players who are more fluffy and nonserious (local gaming group) and probably more competetive crazies when i travel to toronto to play in a GW store, i guess ill save an unfriendly tyrant build for those road trips haha

Im really toying with the idea of one or two Prime's but im wondering what there options are for joining units, can they only join units of warriors? The upside to me dropping a tyrant from a 2k list is i can try and fit two trygons for giggles (a double trygon force was a big part of me choosing this army). As for the attacky CC warriors would they be viable if they were screened by the gaunt hordes? I intended to stomp them right up the middle alongside a tervigon and the gaunts so who knows the enemy might waste there shots on the tervs instead (especially if i take two, as per your advice!). Basically if i go for primes it would seem a little odd to have them sitting at the back of the table with my hiveguard babysitting warriors Im not sure...

Termagants i was going to take one unit of gaunts with devourers and then leave the rest to what my terv(s) can spawn on the move, i just really like hormagaunts for some reason, not sure why.

[Inquisitor Stingray]

Primes may join any unit that doesn't only have a single model in it. For some reason, I find it extremely hard to explain right now, but seeing as I haven't slept for forty hours, I may be duely excused. The Tyranid Prime may join a single Carnifex, Venomthrope, Zoanthrope et cetera, because these units aren't limited to just one model. So the Prime can't join a Trygon, Tervigon, Tyrannofex or anything with a unit composition of 1. Also, it is worth noting that a unit always moves at the pace of its slowest members. So sticking a Prime with Hormagaunts or Gargoyles wouldn't work very well.

A pair of Trygons is definetely a viable idea at 2000 points, hell I once made a 1K list with three Trygons just for (my) laughs. The Initiative bonus from Furious Charge is gone, so taking Adrenal Glands is not nearly as important now. Furthermore, being Fearless on its own and Rage having no drawback, there is essentially no use for Trygon Primes, except against Force Weapons which is somewhat situational.

As for the Warriors advancing with the horde and dealing out damage, I am still hesitant to support the idea. Mostly because there are Warrior-counterparts that can do the same job, but better. Those are Raveners and Shrikes. The former is for seeking out pockets of resistance and destroying light vehicles and the latter excels at taking out heavy infantry and spreading Synapse. Their only drawback is that the have a worse Armor Save than Warriors, making them a fragile glasshammer unit. Dropping Warriors in Spores isen't the best idea either, seeing as they can't assault/charge when arriving and can't be joined by a Prime (aaargh!).

[DukeMantis]

Arrrgh indeed, it seems like finding a safe(ish) route to combat for a Prime is tricky...

[DukeMantis]

Also thank you for explaining its joining rules I used to play MMO's so i know how sleep deprivation gets!

[DukeMantis]

So im working on my army list a little more and was wondering...

Can i attach a Tyranid Prime to a unit of three Zoanthropes? If so, i could they spore down in the same pod?

Im trying to decide whether to commit to Zoans or Hive Guard, i feel Zoans will better compliment the fact that i wish to field two Trygons (at 2k). But perhaps its worth taking a token unit of two or three hive guard for backfield support fire? If so i would have a cheap ass unit of three shooty tyranid warriors babysit them. Any thoughts?

[DukeMantis]

ALSO!

Can i link two tyranid primes to one unit? Toying with the idea of wound allocation trickery tyranid warrior unit.. not sure if i can put warriors AND a prime in a spore though... must check my codex