How do we deal with 'Castled' opponents.

[stonehorse]

Now we all know that models camped in the upper floors of ruins are an absolute pain for our close combat Monstrous Creatures to deal with, due to not being able to engage with them.

Just had a game where a Space Marine army castled up and didn't move for the entire game as it didn't need to in order to secure mission objectives. All the while using fire-power to render my infantry units and ranged monstrous creatures stains on the floor. Thus leaving me with models that can not threaten their force in way.


So my question is now, how do we deal with armies that adopt this strategy? What tools do we have to force them to move, or/and how do we apply pressure upon them?

I'm thinking the following might work.

• 3 Tyrannocytes each with a brood of 3-6 Zoanthropes dropping in to use the Psychic Barrage stratagem.
• 3 Tyrannocytes each with a Maleceptor dropping in and each using their Psychic Overload.
  
• Tyrannocytes each with a brood 20 Genestealers, who can move, advance and charge after disembarking.
  
• A Tyrannocyte with a brood of 9 Tyranid Warriors with Deathspitters and use the Single-Minded Annihilation Stratagem. 
  
• A Tyrannocytes with a brood of 20 Termagants with Devourers and use the Single-Minded Annihilation Stratagem.
  
• Sporocysts, use their advanced deployment trick, and just keep spewing out Spore Mines at the enemy unit/s.

Can anyone else think of any other tricks that might work?

[riotearp]

You can reduce the cover of the building per stratagem and then drop 30 Devilgaunts with a trygon to doubletapp them with the other stratagem.

[stonehorse]

Nov 20, 2017 10:52:15 GMT riotearp said:

You can reduce the cover of the building per stratagem and then drop 30 Devilgaunts with a trygon to doubletapp them with the other stratagem.

Nice, also I may be reading it wrong but, it seems that the cover is negated for the duration of the entire game as well.

[riotearp]

At least i played it so. I´m also thinking about bring hiveguards in front of his lines per cheap venator jomungandr tunnels. A unit of 6 with doubletap should bring down one vehicle or a lot of dead primaris XD

[Bellator]

No, you read it right. It's a nice tool to have in our back pocket.

If you don't want them to sit in one ruin all game, make it uncomfortably dangerous to do so. Fly/drop multiple units on them at once. Stealers and/or warriors/shrikes should work. And/or deploy a exocrine/tyrannofex within range to double tap said building. Maybe bombard it with spore mines. Deep strike/fly over gargoyles and tie the top floor in combat.

Ultimately you need multiple threats, and just one getting through needs to be dangerous. We have tools for this.

[nurglitch]

Maleceptors, Mawlocs, and groups of Zoanthropes.

[acehilator]

The Psychic Barrage stratagem is a trap. With a taxi unit to ensure 6 Zoans are alive you get to use it once, and you just paid a hell of an amount of points for a one trick pony.

After the initial enthusiasm has worn off, Maleceptors are still bad. Cheap melee Walkrants with dual ScyTals have almost the same engagement profile and are so much better it makes me weep.

Why the fixiation on Tcytes anyways? Lots of options to ferry around infantry units now. Tcytes are decent with the Deathspitter buff, but I would still only take one if I need it for a core part of my strategy.


Also, nobody mentioned the most obvious solutions.

1. taking less melee-only monsters
2. (one or more) HT with wings
3. Hive Guard with Impaler Cannons
4. Jormungandr Warlord trait
5. maybe Dakka Thornbacks if not running Jormungandr, but I don't really like their weapon options

I only play on tables with lots of stuff that gives cover to infantry units (woods, craters, battlescapes) AND lots of ruins, I changed/built my list  implementing points 1,2 and 4, and it wrecks face. Jormungandr Warlord + Tervigon + 60 Gants (40 Dev, 20 FB) + Single Minded Annihilation stratagem = dead Marines EVERYWHERE.

[bansh]

I have found that slamming hormies stealers gargoyles and fexes into the walls has a good outcome

[able]

My first question is why they didn't need to secure objectives? In my experience, giving up map control is giving up the game. That sort of strategy tends to result in a game ending with about 4 tyranids running around at the end of the game, but with more VPs.

If the enemy has all their points in one place, and you are unable to get all your points into the fight with it; you will lose. If you spend points on getting your units into position to fight all their points, you will again be effectively fighting them with less points, and you will lose. A tight castled formation is a sacrifice of map control for raw brawling power, and will be unbeatable in a brawl. Don't brawl them and expect to have more left at the end. The only reason to brawl is to pin them down while you make points, and for that you want tankyness. Fexes, tyrants, and hundreds of borer gants, gaunts and goyles will not kill the enemy, but should allow you to win the game in the time it takes to kill them. Neurothropes are absurd for the price, at barely more points per wound than a zoanthrope. Use them aggressively as melee tarpits (making full use of fly), and use their smite heal to it's full potential. Run them as a group, and you can reliably get one back to full health from 1W in a single psykic phase (they can heal each other). Play to stall, which may mean killing threats, but just getting them into melee is powerful. Your gants will die in droves, which is all according to plan.

Removing cover from smurfs is huge. If a single unit is hit once by a unit of devilgants, you are getting as much from the stratagem as if you used SMA.

[kazetanade]

Nov 20, 2017 21:38:13 GMT acehilator said:

The Psychic Barrage stratagem is a trap. With a taxi unit to ensure 6 Zoans are alive you get to use it once, and you just paid a hell of an amount of points for a one trick pony.

After the initial enthusiasm has worn off, Maleceptors are still bad. Cheap melee Walkrants with dual ScyTals have almost the same engagement profile and are so much better it makes me weep.

Why the fixiation on Tcytes anyways? Lots of options to ferry around infantry units now. Tcytes are decent with the Deathspitter buff, but I would still only take one if I need it for a core part of my strategy.


Also, nobody mentioned the most obvious solutions.

1. taking less melee-only monsters
2. (one or more) HT with wings
3. Hive Guard with Impaler Cannons
4. Jormungandr Warlord trait
5. maybe Dakka Thornbacks if not running Jormungandr, but I don't really like their weapon options

I only play on tables with lots of stuff that gives cover to infantry units (woods, craters, battlescapes) AND lots of ruins, I changed/built my list  implementing points 1,2 and 4, and it wrecks face. Jormungandr Warlord + Tervigon + 60 Gants (40 Dev, 20 FB) + Single Minded Annihilation stratagem = dead Marines EVERYWHERE.

Just a point - Maleceptors seem to be running around with a D6 ScyTals, so marginally more potential than a Flyrant or walkrant. 

Other than that, concur mostly. I'd still run a strat some day with like 4 or 5 just to see the mortal wound stack - Getting like 4 of them into combat with Flyrant support psychic is probably going to be brutal. 4 MW in units around you for 6" Regardless if Character or not. + all the psychic screaming and Smites to follow up - it's just sad that they cant both Overload and cast psychic like a certain putrid rotting primarch.

[almostmercury]

Nov 21, 2017 2:50:01 GMT kazetanade said:

Just a point - Maleceptors seem to be running around with a D6 ScyTals, so marginally more potential than a Flyrant or walkrant. 

Ummmm, not with at least 1 less attack and WS 4+.

[kazetanade]

marginal, potential.

[almostmercury]

No man. The flyrant's distribution will be better in any realistic scenario. Maybe in the most extreme cases the Mal can pull more damage, but that'll be less than 1% without a doubt.

[No One]

kazetanade said:

Just a point - Maleceptors seem to be running around with a D6 ScyTals, so marginally more potential than a Flyrant or walkrant.

No actually: flyrant/walkrant max is 24 (6 attacks including tail+scy tals, 4 Dam with TS). Maleceptor is 18. And yes, getting all 5 attacks hitting for 4 Dam with scy tals is more likely than a mal rolling 18 damage. (At least into T7 3+). And MRC is way more likely.

[N.I.B.]

What kind of game can be won by sitting in a terrain piece? Maelstrom, look into it.

And nids have sooooo many tools to mess up armies in a ruin. The stratagem that removes cover from a piece or terrain for the rest of the game, Hive Guards with Impaler Cannons (take a unit of 6, double shoot them, laugh while you do it), Biovores. These units are common in most all-comers lists. Smite, Psychic Scream, assaulting Flyrants/Genestealers/Hormagaunts or just plain weight of fire. Go to town.