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Post by Halollet on Sept 27, 2017 17:51:29 GMT
I got a tourney list I need to polish by Sunday and I need some help! Battalion +3cp HQ Swarmlord - 300 Broodlord - 162 Troops Genestealer x16 w/ scything talons - 192 Genestealer x16 w/ scything talons - 192 Ripperswarms x4 - 44 Elites Tyrant Guard x3 w/ LW & Sword - 117 Fast Attack Raveners x5, 3x Rending Claws & Scy Tals, 2x 2x Scy Tals - 121 Tyranid Shrikes x6 .... up to 194 points Spearhead +1cp HQ Malanthrope Heavy Support Exocrine - 228 Trygon, Adreal Glands Toxinspikes - 180 Trygon, Adreal Glands Toxinspikes - 180 Stealers go in Trygon tunnels. Rippers for objective yoinking, Malanthrope gives -1 to everything on turn one, Exocrine dakka, Raveners pop up. Got exactly half my army in reserve! 2,000 points. So here's my list, but there are some things I need some help with. I'm not 100% sure how to arm my Shrikes though. Right now I have 3 with 2x talons for fodder and the others with guns and bone swords. Not sure which guns to give them though. Don't know how to balance all this, should I make one Trygon a prime for more synapse? Drop a stealer or 2 for the points?
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Post by malanthropic on Sept 27, 2017 20:32:17 GMT
Hmm... I do have some questions... What is the point of the broodlord? He won't be anywhere near the genestealers if they are popping out of Trygon Tunnels, right? Why 16 genestealers per unit? The swarmlord can get the shrikes pretty far downfield in turn one, but then they're on their own. Then Swarmy has to run across the table, getting shot and not doing much until he can find combat. Its hard to make up those 300pts + 120 for the guard. Also, don't count on anything that pops up out of a tunnel being able to get a good charge off the turn they show up. Using 1 CP and Adrenal Glands still only gives you about a 50/50 shot of getting off a charge from deepstrike. Its a gamble, and CPs go quick.
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Post by Halollet on Sept 27, 2017 21:13:16 GMT
Broodlord - Need another HQ and he's the cheapest that I own, can't be shot, beast in CC, good psyker, and might help out the stealers. Genestealers - Why 16? that's what I have the points for and hoping that at least 10 will make it past overwatch to get the bonus. Swarmlord - I don't like taking the guard for him, but can't really figure out another way to have him not shot off the table Top of turn 1. If you have a suggestion as to what to swap him with, I'm open! Assault - I have 5 things popping up so with the command point and with Swarmy slingshotting something in, I can get 3-4 things in pretty reliably. I know its a gamble, but still better than walking there and I don't have many gun beasts.
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Post by thespawnofcryptus on Sept 27, 2017 22:57:23 GMT
You could try this:
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Tyranids) [116 PL, 1998pts] ++
+ HQ +
Malanthropes [5 PL, 90pts]: Malanthrope
The Swarmlord [15 PL, 300pts]: Power: Catalyst, Power: The Horror
+ Troops +
Genestealers [16 PL, 192pts] . 16x Genestealer: 16x Rending Claws, 16x Scything Talons
Genestealers [16 PL, 192pts] . 16x Genestealer: 16x Rending Claws, 16x Scything Talons
Ripper Swarm [2 PL, 33pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm
Ripper Swarm [2 PL, 33pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm
Ripper Swarm [2 PL, 33pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm
Ripper Swarm [2 PL, 33pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm
+ Fast Attack +
Raveners [8 PL, 130pts] . Ravener: Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Spinefists . Ravener: Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Spinefists . Ravener: Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Spinefists . Ravener: 2x Scything Talons . Ravener: 2x Scything Talons
Tyranid Shrikes [12 PL, 192pts] . Tyranid Shrike: Boneswords, Deathspitter . Tyranid Shrike: Boneswords, Deathspitter . Tyranid Shrike: Boneswords, Deathspitter . Tyranid Shrike: Scything Talons, Scything Talons . Tyranid Shrike: Scything Talons, Scything Talons . Tyranid Shrike: Scything Talons, Scything Talons
+ Heavy Support +
Exocrine [11 PL, 228pts]: Bio-plasmic Cannon, Powerful Limbs
Trygon [8 PL, 180pts]: Adrenal Glands, Bio-electric Pulse, 3x Massive Scything Talons, Toxinspike
Trygon Prime [10 PL, 219pts]: Adrenal Glands, Bio-electric Pulse with Containment Spines, Biostatic Rattle, 3x Massive Scything Talons
+ Dedicated Transport +
Tyrannocyte [7 PL, 143pts]: 5x Venom Cannon
++ Total: [116 PL, 1998pts] ++
Created with BattleScribe
Exactly half is DS in. It drops the broodlord, upgrades a trygon to a Prime and adds a tyrannocyte for the swarmlord.
I assumed you wanted to keep the exocrine and malanthrope, but to be honest they don't really synergise with the list very well, as they have no bubble wrap unless you use the rippers. You could, however, drop a unit of rippers, the spinefists on the raveners, the venom cannons down to deathspitters on the tyrannocyte, and a genestealer, in order to gain a unit of 15 fleshborer termagants (60pts), which can be used to surround the exocrine and malanthrope to prevent them from being charged, giving a list total of 1999pts.
Hope this helps, and good luck!
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Post by Halollet on Sept 27, 2017 23:41:24 GMT
I do really like that list, but I don't have a tyrannocyte... And the exocrine is there to help take out more mobile enemies. I played against Grey Knights and their StormRaven basically had its way with me. I don't like static nature of the crine, but the T-Rex just doesn't cut it unfortunately and I have 0 hive guard so I'm kinda stuck on that front.
Maybe I should just get a pod... Hmm...
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Post by kazetanade on Sept 28, 2017 0:35:51 GMT
Cryptus is a good Broodlord, listen to him.
Pod is good. 1 at least. You dont play enough onboard MC threats here to warrant standing in plain sight.
Raveners are like expensive and (please do not swear) purestrain genestealers for higher cost. Equivalent points of purestrains will yield better results at all times regardless of damage taken or melee weapon loadout and due to Ravs low Ld, dont have as good a morale mitigation as purestrains. Purestrains also have a 5++.
*scytals rav may beat purestrains at killing GEQs, but not by much.
Shrikes can be loaded out with boneswords, or LWBS. They lack the attack count to make rending really work. Scytals are bad on this platform. So take deathspitters with BS/LWBS and use them as your reaction unit. Charge StormRavens, Terminators, deepstriking Trygons, or whatever your exocrene shoots at coming close to your firebase.
I'd wrap with rippers but 15 termagants is legit enough for T1 protection. Kinda minimalist but it'll buy time.
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Post by Halollet on Sept 28, 2017 4:04:18 GMT
Hmmm... I like where this is going. I wasn't big on the raveners so dropping them is no worries. I like the idea of reaction shrikes, maybe drop the raveners and then put my shrikes into 3 units of 3-4. This would allow me to get the whole unit in cover and have that flexibility to grab objectives mid game. So that would free up some points and balance out the reserves not needing as many ripper swarms. So how best would I use that 101 points?
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Post by kazetanade on Sept 28, 2017 4:26:23 GMT
Squeeze out points for a pod. Seriously, makes SL work way better.
If you already had one, then biovores are my p preference. Or more Terms for better wrap.
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Post by Halollet on Sept 28, 2017 10:39:47 GMT
I think I got it.
Swarmlord Malanthrope
Stealers w/ talons x16 Stealers w/ talons x16 Termigants w/ fleshborers x26
Shrikes x3 w/ AG, BS, DS Shrikes x3 w/ AG, BS, DS Shrikes x3 w/ AG, BS, DS
Exocrine Trygon w/ AG, Toxinspike Trygon Prime w/ AG, Biostatic
Tyrannocyte w/ VCs
1999 points 6 units in reserve, 6 on table, with 9 drops which is pretty low so yay for first turns!
Last thing bugging me, is the Trygon Prime worth it? More synapse is always good and he doesn't HAVE to attack with his tail which is awesome (I think) meaning he gets more actual attacks. If I downgraded him, I could get 2 more stealers and 4 more gants which is... eh? Thoughts?
And thank you guys for the feed back! You're awesome! I love the hive! <3
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Post by kazetanade on Sept 28, 2017 11:20:45 GMT
Prime ia good. Extra shots, synapse, and an actually good tail effect means it helps slaughter hordes granted no commisar like effect.
2 extra genestealers is ok but without synapse you can see them being wiped fast. Synapse keeps them together and forces the enemy to overcommit - even 5 stealers can be dangerous to a Dev squad even if it wont wipe them.
No need for more terms.
Edit:
The list is quite strong as is, although there is a lack of shooting there are enough threats coming down together to deal a great blow to start and have a decent follow up. It helps that 1 unit will guarantee making it in and having 4 more units to attempt charges with.
The shrikes being fast and mobile, help for follow up and objective grabbing thereafter.
The only thing about the prime is that its marginally better than 2 GS and 4 Terms - but if you found a way to make points for toxin sacs, its worth dropping the Prime status to get the toxins, which will skyrocket that units output high enough to wrwck anything up to landraider. This also means being able to tie up multiple tanks and still wreck them despite splitting attacks.
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Post by Halollet on Sept 30, 2017 15:26:44 GMT
WHELP....I had a game against Ynnari and holy...... Soul burst is freakin' broken. Anyways, I learned a LOT from playing against them. She had 4 wave serpents with banshees, Zar, dragons, flamer wraith guard. It was looking good 1st turn, but I don't have any late game! So... Malanthrope was goodish, but I think I need more back field. Swarmy needs to go after tanks Dropping one Tygon and having one big unit of stealers would be better, by far, also holding off for the right time to strike is good. Shrikes are badass! So I need more staying power and shooting.... Tervigon? Biovores? I'm thinking this list, but I'm not overly happy with it Swarmlord Tervigon Genestealers x19 - Scy tal, TS Termagants x25 - Fleshborers Warriors - Scytal, Dev Shrikes x4 - BS, DS, AG Shrikes x4 - BS, DS, AG Biovores x3 Exocrine Trygon - TSpike, AG Tyrannocyte - VC So I'm sitting there, not happy with it. And then I had an epiphany. I'm not going to enjoy that, I'm going to polish what I like and what has worked for me since 3rd edition with adding in the new things I like. So here's my list, any glaring weaknesses to it? Swarmlord Tryanid Prime - DS, LW&BS, AG, TS Genestealers x19 - ST, TS Hormagaunts x20 Ripper Swarm x3 Tryanid Shrikes x5 - AG, 2 with double talon, 3 with DS, BS Tryanid Shrikes x5 - AG, 2 with double talon, 3 with DS, BS Tyranid Shrikes x3 - DS, LS&BS Biovores x3 Exocrine Trygon Prime - AG, Biostatic Tryannocyte - VC 2000 points. Swarmy in the pod and stealers with the trygon are my get to their deployment zone guys. 2 big shrike units and hormies will be in the middle, with the last shrikes baby sitting the exocrine but able to jump out and do work if needed. Prime will run up behind the hormies to try and help the other shrikesThis will be played more of the trap door spider. Wait until opportunity presents itself and then strike. I also learned that the league will be using the open war scenarios so I don't have to worry about first blood, kill the warlord, or the scourging to anything else like that. So how badly am I going to get my butt handed to me?
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 2, 2017 6:23:05 GMT
You met a rather hard counter list and may not have realized it. Nid alphastrikes always suffer against things in transports. Less now with the Trygons able to pop them on entry but they're still annoying to deal with.
Your first list was better than your current list, you traded a huge damage ball for a huge tie up ball that does nothing to half the transports in the game, and an additional shrike unit which is good for elite hunting but nowhere near as good general damage to deal with most things coming onto the board. If you really feel a sting, you can drop a Shrike unit and the Prime off the Trygon and play 4 or 5 biovores to give you some long range annoyance damage.
If you're going to change your list, you should re-evaluate your win conditions. What conditions or situations do you need the enemy to get into or you need to achieve in order to win the game? Whats given you trouble and how do you deal with that? Whats being flak and not pulling its weight?
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Post by N.I.B. on Oct 2, 2017 12:46:56 GMT
Shrikes are badass! What makes you say that?
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Post by Halollet on Oct 7, 2017 2:11:20 GMT
Looking back at the game. I made a lot of mistakes. Need to be more patient with Swarmy and friends for example. Also, target priority against units that have not used the soul burst would have helped.
I tweeked my list a bit more. Dropped the rippers and the small shrikes for a 3 man unit of warriors to baby sit the exocrine, maxed out the stealers, some more hormies, and a mucliod for shinanigans.
Win conditions seem to be late game objective grabbing or kill points via power level. So having a mobile force seems to be the best idea. Shrikes are the toughest fast unit I own and being synapse helps immensely! I find stealers fold rather quickly when they don't have Catalyst, so one unit of them seems to be the best. Warriors and shrikes have a 3+ in cover which makes marines and they butcher troops. Hormagaunts can tie up non flying tanks by surrounding them super easy with that 12" pile in!
I am loving shrikes, they are jack of all trades, but that gives them so much flexibility. Those deathspitters are great for jumping out of combat and laying into something, or finding a high perch and firing from there. They have a 12+2d6+1" threat range for assault where they can cut down both GEQ and MEQ easily. Their bigger bases can block movement, easy to trap a unit with hormies at the front and shrikes at the back. Last game I was scraping off the last wounds of a wave serpent via shooting. There isn't a lot they can't contribute!
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 7, 2017 6:28:06 GMT
For the record, everything in our index folds quickly without Catalyst. Why I dont recommend having only 1 Genestealer squad is then because it becomes a super easy focus for the enemy and becomes a foldable lynchpin for your army. Stop the Genestealers, Save the World, because the only 2 other things which are even a bit of a threat are the Swarmlord and the Trygon (or the Exocrine if they can screen out the Trygon and/or Swarmlord from anything useful). That translates to a single Conscript screen blocking and indirectly killing 60% of your threat level.
I would keep the Malanthtrope instead of the Tyranid Prime, considering he's only cost effective once he has 6-9 Warriors to buff. You'd be saving 10 + 90 points to put into more Biovores or even to put Toxin Sacs on the Genestealers if you like a big ultimate killy unit that can 1-shot anything.
Shrikes are pretty good yea to pick off stragglers, and they contribute a little bit at everything. But they're not going to pull any heavyweight. Just be aware they're really chip and assist, you need someone else to still be the main battering ram.
Win Condition also does not refer to "how am I going to win the game", but it means "what condition/position do I/opponent need to be in, in order for me to win the game". In your above list case, your win condition is the Genestealers hitting the bulk of the enemy's heavy hitter and obliterating it hard enough that they cant come back. Which is, to be fair, the same for most Genestealer-centric lists. As long as you're convinced you've covered the potential events that may lead up to it (how are they getting in unscathed? How are you getting to the important targets? How are you going to handle Stealer counters that will obliterate them before/after the first charge? How are you going to handle transports?), and have a consistent strategy to achieve that win condition (Stealers walking up while Hormagants wrap up 70% of the enemy army, for example, even if I dont like it), you're all set and the rest is just to playtest it and see how well you like it.
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