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Post by LordPathos on Oct 8, 2015 23:26:26 GMT
Before you start wishing that we go back to fourth edition, remember the points it would cost to upgrade to our base creatures now, was the same in fifth. In other words, if you used a carnifex with 2 pairs of scything talons in fourth, it cost the same as the base carnifex in fifth (give or take biomorph upgrades) I'm not sure that I've correctly understood what you're trying to say. In 4th Ed. I know you paid points for the model and HAD to purchase weapons to make it legal to play. I think you were saying that in 4th Ed. a carnifex that purchased the same weapons as a bare-bones carnifex (2 x Scything Talons, no biomorphs) in 5th Ed. would be equal points cost. That is supremely untrue. For 161pts (the closest I could get) a 4th Ed CC carnifex would have: 2x Scything Talons +1 WS +1 S +1 T +3 Ld 2+ save All other stats are identical. The only advantage the 5th Ed carnifex has is the ability to be taken in broods of 3 and rerolling 1's to hit. A basic carnifex in 4th Ed. (2x Scything Talons, no biomorphs) was identical to the 5th Ed carnifex except with +3 Ld and a price tag of 101pts. The same hold true for most of our units from 4th to 5th only not so extreme. That is why 4th Ed. is considered the apex of Tyranid power and is looked on so fondly by old-timers. That and the 5th Codex was a bland piece of (please do not swear) that forced you to spam Tervigons the way that people spam Flyrants now. The 5th 'dex suffered from GW's need to make up a bunch (17 more if you're counting) of poorly thought out, poorly designed, and unnecessary extra units. I looked up the points and I have no idea where I came up with the idea tgat if you purchased everything, at 4th edition price, that comes stock on a 5th edition Carnifex that the points would be the same. I must be out of my mind. Base Fex in 5th = 160. To get the same stats from 4th you would need Base Fex at 85, 2 Scything Talons at 8 each, Enhanced Senses for 8. You would be out 3 Leadership the 5th re-roll rules. But any way you slice it, that is not 160 points. Boy was I wrong...
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Post by N.I.B. on Oct 9, 2015 8:47:02 GMT
Cruddace doesn't hate the Tyranids. He just has a better understanding of what makes them fun to play with and against Totally. He just fails to understand what makes every other codex fun to play against. 'Fun' assumes the Tyranid player social-contracting away 80% of the opponent's codex, to get a fair game. Unless we go flying circus. Cruddace probably think Tyranids are fun as the cinematically dying adversary. Here, have another new 6" moving 'cc' monster with WS3. Of course we have one of the old codices by todays standard, so parts of what make us only codex Flyrant has to do with basic rule changes and codex creep. Same development team behind everything though, and our old codex doesn't excuse the fail of the new Tyranid kits. I suspect play testing the last years has been very basic and probably even non-existant for most rule changes and new releases. Logically the insane increase of Models Workshop's release rates should have required a corresponding reinforcement of the development team to keep up. That hasn't happened (I can't know for sure, but it's a good guess).
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Post by stonehorse on Oct 9, 2015 11:36:27 GMT
Some interesting thoughts here, sadly it is becoming more apparent that GW are no longer focused on writing balanced rules, but rather on selling models. It used to be true that the best way to sell models was to give the new models the best rules, and reduce the power or impact of the previous models available. This is something that I think GW are slowly moving away from, and now trusting more in producing models that appeal based purely on being great models.
Either way I think it will be hard for GW to produce a Codex that is as full of imbalances as our current Codex, there is a reason that the competitive lists we see on the tournament scene are comprised of about 4 models (Flying Hive Tyrants, Mucolid Spores, Lictors, and Mawlocs)
That being said it would be nice to see a Codex that doesn't have the taint of Robin Cruddace, he may not be attributed with writing the 6th edition Codex, but it does seem to be a copy and paste job of the 5th Codex with a few minor adjustments here and there.
Just out of interest, can anyone remember who wrote the 4th edition Codex? I suspect that it was Andy Chambers, if so that will be why it was such a well done product, just a shame that he no longer works for the company.
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Post by nurglitch on Oct 9, 2015 12:52:37 GMT
Andy Chambers was responsible for the 3rd edition codex, and co-wrote with Phil Kelly on the 4th.
The great thing about the 6th edition Tyranid book is that it took a bunch of poorly tailored special rules and replaced them with much more service-able special rules out of the rulebook, and generally made sure that Tyranids were playing the same game as everything else in the game. It also gives the players hard decisions to choose between options rather than determining a single best-build like the 4th edition codex did with biomorphs, and the 5th edition did with Tervigons. The 6th/7th edition also added many more units to the game, with Tyranids getting Maleceptors, Toxicrenes, Exocrines, Haruspexes, Sporocysts, Tyrannocytes, Hive Crones and Mucalids, as well as plastic Harpies, Hive Guard, Tyrant Guard, Venomthropes, Zoanthropes, the Swarmlord, new Warriors, and Spore Mines. That's including formations in a game no longer limited to CAD-on-CAD play.
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Post by biomassbob on Oct 9, 2015 16:04:00 GMT
nurglitch - we didn't need the amount of new units added and I hope when we get a 7th ed dex there are ZERO new units. We have too many now. The main thing is for the dex designers to get a handle on what they do and how the army works and trying to ensure that most units/biomorphs have a useful role and are effective for their points, and that nids (I'm talking about through the dex only) can compete with the other armies and have answers for the different units out there. Supplements are fine when needed but should add to the army - not be necessary or replace units to compete fairly with other armies.
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Post by theoneeyedmonster on Oct 11, 2015 9:10:53 GMT
I'm sure last year it came out that no longer was one person in control like cruddace, but 'the design team' as a whole.
I suspect that it mitigates agitated hate emails to the company on regular basis from frustrated collectors.
Looks like the new ork saga 1500 yrs after the heresy will see them elevated to a usable standard, It'd be nice if tyranids were an actual threat that they are bearing down on holy terra.
Tbh I do wonder if 40k should get the end times treatment sometimes after all this formations schematic and. At least then inter galactic nids might have a shot at killing people.
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Post by nurglitch on Oct 11, 2015 22:03:28 GMT
nurglitch - we didn't need the amount of new units added and I hope when we get a 7th ed dex there are ZERO new units. We have too many now. The main thing is for the dex designers to get a handle on what they do and how the army works and trying to ensure that most units/biomorphs have a useful role and are effective for their points, and that nids (I'm talking about through the dex only) can compete with the other armies and have answers for the different units out there. Supplements are fine when needed but should add to the army - not be necessary or replace units to compete fairly with other armies. Maybe you didn't need the new units; I think it's great that Tyranids get more options and more variety. The problem, as I see it, is that GW makes money by selling miniatures. Stuff like rules and books are basically marketing material. It's the margin on the plastic kits. Space Marines are the best sellers, to my mind, because they are essentially a built-it-yourself range. I've built three companies worth of Space Marines, two of which are equipped almost solely with MkVI helmets, and another almost entirely of the CSM Berzerker corinthian-style helms. There's a limit to the number of Tyranids I want to buy because I can't easily do something similar with Tyranids. Whereas Space Marines I don't really have a reason to stop buying them. I'm something of a complete-ist, so I'm buying one of every kit just so I can have one, but I've bought multiple Space Marine kits. I'm not sure GW could make that pivot from Tyranids in the current style to Tyranids that people can customize as particular Hive-Fleet, strains, etc. I mean, they tried a bit in 4th edition with the bio-morph upgrades, but they did it badly (and sold a lot of Carnifex kits in doing so) and I think that well's been poisoned. I suppose the Gaunt kits could be redone so that people have three reasons to buy a unit of Gaunts, and the newest kits like Zoanthropes and Warriors and whatnot are customizable, but not to the degree that I can customize SM models. I know the comment about on 20% of customers are gamers, but my experience is that only maybe 10% of my GW experience revolves around game. Mind you, maybe 1% of my swimming career revolved around competing in the finals of swim meets, but it was why I swam for so long. If I could customize Gaunts, regardless of their game-play, I would buy more instead of buying the same - it's why I own 60 Genestealers.
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Post by gigasnail on Oct 11, 2015 22:10:00 GMT
yeah i can't really get behind the 'no new models' view. yes, they need to make the existing units not suck, but it's not an either/or option.
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Post by snakezenn on Oct 12, 2015 1:08:36 GMT
I would like to see new biovores/Pyrovores personally.
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Post by sajeel on Oct 12, 2015 2:06:40 GMT
I dont have much issue with overwatch, usually i just throw my Terms to eat overwatch followed by my hormies =D Termi screen ftw
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Post by arapaima on Oct 12, 2015 3:33:31 GMT
I think close combat should have a place. 40k is more space fantasy then military science fiction. Plenty of armies in the background function as close combat centric force and even win battle against some that fights like contemporary military force. Give us the rules to do that, not gimp us like a bunch of chumps engaging in futile traditoinalist combat against a proper state of the art army.
OW is fine, what's more irritating is the random charge distance.
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Post by killercroc on Oct 12, 2015 4:58:59 GMT
Hey all I've been trying to work out Main Rules that hurt us the most, and I feel that the whole Charge Subphase is one massive area of hurt for Nids. I know there are a lot of ideas on, how to fix nids, but how about a small change to the Assault sub phase for charging - adding the line: "If a unit fires Overwatch, all of the unit’s models must attack at Initiative step 1, regardless of other Initiative modifiers in the ensuing close combat."You can choose not to fire Overwatch remember, and neither Assault nor Defensive grenades would need to change. Thoughts? A bit late to the party but here are my thoughts to contribute. Overall I find overwatch wasn't a bad idea to add into the game, it's been around for a while in space hulk and the role-playing games. Also thinking about it a squad taking blind shots as it is being charged by an alien horde is pretty understandable, but yes it does need a few tweeks to make it more realistic and fair to both parties: First off overwatch should stick at BS 1, its literally the unit taking quick un-aimed shots at a foe as it's charging at them full speed, it makes no sense that this kind of shot is as accurate as when you got down on a knee and took the time to aim. There should be no rules or wargear increasing your BS while overwatch, it's already a free shot you get at your opponent that you didn't get before, asking to do it at full BS is just plain silly fluff wise and fair rule wise. Change how Wall of Death works for range purposes. All other weapons have to follow range and LoS rules so I don't get why flamers get a free pass. I'm sorry, but Billy-Joe with the flamer that is on the other side of a wall shouldn't get his shots in just cause he has the magical power of bad rule writing. Wall of death should work like this. The template is roughly 8" so if there are no friendly models directly in front of a model with a template weapon, and the model is within 8" of a model that is in range of being assaulted he would then get the D3 template hits. In addition if the template wielder is directly being assaulted (so that an enemy model will be getting within B2B contact with him) that point you should inflict D6 hits instead. A little bit harder to explain in words but is more realistic and more fair for both parties. Thirdly they should actually make assault grenades useful in the assault. Heck besides tyranids they hand out assault grenades like candy to other armies but they typically don't make a difference since everyone already has them it makes it seem moot, even in the fluff they write that assault grenades are thrown before a charge to force the target back before the charge hits home. It should stay how it is but I don't think it would be unreasonable to include a rule saying that, if the assaulting unit throws an assault grenade before charging, models underneath the blast do not get to fire overwatch. Nothing major since not that many models can fit under the template but at the same time it makes sense that a unit just chucked a grenade at you, you'll be scrambling out of the way and not bracing for the charge and taking burst shots at your assaulter. Just a few things I think would help make overwatch more realistic and fair, both for the overwatcher and the assaulter.
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Post by N.I.B. on Oct 12, 2015 11:38:27 GMT
I own 60 Genestealers because they could charge from Outflank and charge from Infiltrate, and get 4+ cover saves in area terrain and 4+ FNP from assured Tervigon Catalysts.
I don't mind even more new units, but MW has a record of remaking our multi-purpose units into niched units that are bad at what they do, or too limited in their role so you don't want to risk taking them outside tailored games.
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Post by biomassbob on Oct 12, 2015 13:27:51 GMT
Not saying I never want a new tyranid unit again. I just want the resources/time that GW designers end up having available for a new nid dex to be spent cleaning up the mess and making a decent dex with the unit/biomorphs that are there before adding in more things. It seems that GW likes to keep throwing in new models (of course to sell kits) but at such an increased rate that their efforts are spread out over too many things and too many issues do not get a proper treatment so they can focus on the new thing - this isn't just nid kits - it is the rate of releases and upping that with so many supplements, dataslates, etc. It wasn't that many years ago when dexes were 3 a year (4 if lucky) and maybe they added a new kit when your dex was released. IMO, put the main effort into sorting out the army, unit roles, special rules, biomorphs, etc, so that we get a good (not OP) dex (rather then the garbage of the 5th and 6th ed nid dexes) and then go from there to add in a new model/unit.
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Post by nurglitch on Oct 13, 2015 19:09:59 GMT
How would you sell more of the current Tyranid miniatures then?
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