Would a subtle change to Overwatch make any difference?

[gingerwerewolf]

Hey all

I've been trying to work out Main Rules that hurt us the most, and I feel that the whole Charge Subphase is one massive area of hurt for Nids.

I know there are a lot of ideas on, how to fix nids, but how about a small change to the Assault sub phase for charging - adding the line:

"If a unit fires Overwatch, all of the unit’s models must attack at Initiative step 1, regardless of other Initiative modifiers in the ensuing close combat."

You can choose not to fire Overwatch remember, and neither Assault nor Defensive grenades would need to change.

Thoughts?

[nurglitch]

Overwatch can be cancelled out by forcing a unit to go to ground, by charging it first with cannon-fodder to force the choice of either wasting overwatch fire on the cannon-fodder, or risk being locked in combat because the important/vulnerable things charge.

Likewise the Initiative bonus against units that charge across difficult terrain can be cancelled if the unit being charged has gone to ground, is falling back, or is been locked in combat from a previous turn. That's if the unit lack Frag Spines, or Flesh Hooks.

[Kark]

I think overwatch is fine as it is. There are some ways to omit overwatch like assaulting with more than just one unit or force pinning tests, or force the enemy to go to ground. If You charge units that are pinned or gtg You don't suffer the initiative penalty for charging through difficult terrain either.

[nurglitch]

I think having the incentive to attack with waves of critters is good for Tyranids.

[gingerwerewolf]

To me, overwatch on top of the Initiative penalty for charging anywhere near cover, just ruins the hit of Nids.

Whats the point of us having I5 or I6? We'll always be charging and we'll always be I 1

If there was a weapon that actually regularly pinned the opponents then Id use it.

[stonehorse]

The biggest issue with combat is that our Codex really struggles to deal with assaulting through cover. If models within Synapse range, and Synapse creatures ignored the penalty for charging through cover, this would help a lot.

[biomassbob]

The concept of overwatch itself is not the problem (if some armies/units are given almost a full extra shooting phase that is a problem with those armies/units) for the most part in the CC phase for nids. I would say the issue for nids (and any CC type armies/units) is that CC has been nerfed too many ways in the main rules but our dex also adds to the problems.
Why aren't dedicated CC units such as stealers/ravenors (or units such as the warrior/carnifex that are solely CC kitted) have cheap upgrades (or automatic upgrades for CC builds) such as flesh hooks so they do not lose initiave when going through cover?
Why does a carnifex built solely for CC get only one extra CC attack compared to a fex with devourers?
Why did GW take away scything talon re-rolls? They were not overpowered and gave some CC builds something?
Why does a group of warriors armed with scything talons move the same speed as a group of warriors with deathspitters and a barbed strangler?
Why are non-flying CC nids so slow when there are so many faster units/vehicles in the game?
Why does Cruddace hate nids so?

Overwatch isn't the main problem with CC. Many posters have highlighted the problems with CC in our dex and some have provided good ideas to make CC better.

So when the next nid dex comes out what should happen IMO is an overhaul of the philsoophy of the army (what do units do and how do they function together as an army) so that there s a real difference between CC units and shooty units and that CC nids are a threat in such a shooty game where firepower keeps increasing. CC has not kept up with the increases to shooting - not just in main rulebook benefits but in the army firepower for the point cost. Think of it as a guy with an axe running towards a guy with a pistol. The shooter may kill/wound the axeman before he can get to CC - but has short range and only a few shots and may miss. Over the years GW decided to increase the shooters range, give him more rounds a turn, increase the damage from rounds, reduce the costs so that you may face 2 shooters now, etc, while the axeman had little changes (certainly not enough to address the massive improvements of the shooter).

[gingerwerewolf]

Oct 7, 2015 17:29:12 GMT biomassbob said:

The concept of overwatch <snip>

That is a very eloquently written and brilliant post. All good points.

[nurglitch]

Warriors have access to Flesh Hooks. Carnifexes have access to Frag Spines.
A Carnifex built solely for close combat is not a Carnifex that is built for shooting and close combat; it's a step down.
Because Scything Talons with more attacks increased the expected value of most attacks.
Warriors armed with Scything Talons doesn't have to sacrifice its shooting to run.
Non-flying Tyranids, with the exception of all the Fleet, Beast, Swarm, and Move Through Cover units aren't that slow. Where they're slow they're populous enough for good board coverage.
Cruddace doesn't hate the Tyranids. He just has a better understanding of what makes them fun to play with and against.
Warhammer 40k used to be dominated by close combat, which is silly in a game with guns. It's currently a good mix of both, as units have incentives to close, and while shooting is safer, close combat is needed to capture and hold objectives.

[gingerwerewolf]

I think that the general consensus is that Nids are fun to play against because you can remove big gribbly monsters and enemy troops with your shooting. They are fun to play with because you get to use those creatures under your control

Where they lack is that the other armies have vast weapon systems for every target. They put the fear into us regularly with those weapon systems - and as such it would be nice if we could put the fear back into them in CC, but we dont.

Note how every list has the same thing in it. How the majority of our armies are based around shooting over close combat when we are supposed to be the premier close combat army.

We are supposed to swarm over you the second you stop shooting. You are supposed to triggerlock out of terror.

Where is the fun of charging towards a gunline if when we get there, they shug us off, or even worse, kill us before we get to attack?

[snakezenn]

Going off of what biomassbob said, I think that the base tyrnids need to be cheaper so that we can add the upgrades to the creature whether they be CC or shooty upgrades. Such as how the fourth edition had it, choose two weapons plus biomorphs and be good at your selected role. Right now I feel that with the base tyrnid price and the price of the upgrades we are too expensive.

[LordPathos]

Before you start wishing that we go back to fourth edition, remember the points it would cost to upgrade to our base creatures now, was the same in fifth. In other words, if you used a carnifex with 2 pairs of scything talons in fourth, it cost the same as the base carnifex in fifth (give or take biomorph upgrades) Same goes for warriors with 1 pair of scything talons and a devourer. The problem that arose with the carnifex was that now you had to pay even more points to swap out for guns and such. While I don't disagree that somethings need to be cheaper, I think they at least need the options to use biomorphs. (Because apparently Adrenal Glands on a toxicrene and Haruspex are op)

[GuardDog78]

Honestly...over watch is fine. As others stated...it's the Init penalty that is the problem. Assaulting through cover should have a fixed penalty (I.e. -2), or a fixed based on the cover itself to represent the difficulty of getting past it:
Cover Init
6+ -1
5+ -2
4+. -3
That way...agile, high Init units aren't penalized as badly as low Init units. A gene stealer should not be hitting after a necron warrior just because it ran through some bushes...

[snakezenn]

Oct 8, 2015 18:49:53 GMT LordPathos said:

Before you start wishing that we go back to fourth edition, remember the points it would cost to upgrade to our base creatures now, was the same in fifth. In other words, if you used a carnifex with 2 pairs of scything talons in fourth, it cost the same as the base carnifex in fifth (give or take biomorph upgrades) Same goes for warriors with 1 pair of scything talons and a devourer. The problem that arose with the carnifex was that now you had to pay even more points to swap out for guns and such. While I don't disagree that somethings need to be cheaper, I think they at least need the options to use biomorphs. (Because apparently a toxicrene and Haruspex are op)

Never played in fourth, but I think it would be an easier way to balance the different weapon options. It seems as if everything but CC is getting cheaper and so I simply think that CC needs to follow the trend.

[Col. Duke LaCrosse]

Oct 8, 2015 18:49:53 GMT LordPathos said:

Before you start wishing that we go back to fourth edition, remember the points it would cost to upgrade to our base creatures now, was the same in fifth. In other words, if you used a carnifex with 2 pairs of scything talons in fourth, it cost the same as the base carnifex in fifth (give or take biomorph upgrades)

I'm not sure that I've correctly understood what you're trying to say. In 4th Ed. I know you paid points for the model and HAD to purchase weapons to make it legal to play. I think you were saying that in 4th Ed. a carnifex that purchased the same weapons as a bare-bones carnifex (2 x Scything Talons, no biomorphs) in 5th Ed. would be equal points cost. That is supremely untrue. For 161pts (the closest I could get) a 4th Ed CC carnifex would have:

2x Scything Talons
+1 WS
+1 S
+1 T
+3 Ld
2+ save

All other stats are identical. The only advantage the 5th Ed carnifex has is the ability to be taken in broods of 3 and rerolling 1's to hit. A basic carnifex in 4th Ed. (2x Scything Talons, no biomorphs) was identical to the 5th Ed carnifex except with +3 Ld and a price tag of 101pts. The same hold true for most of our units from 4th to 5th only not so extreme.

That is why 4th Ed. is considered the apex of Tyranid power and is looked on so fondly by old-timers. That and the 5th Codex was a bland piece of (please do not swear) that forced you to spam Tervigons the way that people spam Flyrants now. The 5th 'dex suffered from GW's need to make up a bunch (17 more if you're counting) of poorly thought out, poorly designed, and unnecessary extra units.