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Post by jaysic on Apr 9, 2015 22:48:58 GMT
Already commented on this subject in a previous thread.
Make Tervigons able to have a transport capacity of 15 instead of it's spawn ability (buy the upgraded or free swap out, don't care which) and make it an "Assault vehicle."
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Post by swarm492 on Apr 9, 2015 23:00:46 GMT
Already commented on this subject in a previous thread. Make Tervigons able to have a transport capacity of 15 instead of it's spawn ability (buy the upgraded or free swap out, don't care which) and make it an "Assault vehicle." All of this, let me carry infantry minis in it, stealers/warriors whatever.
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Post by jaysic on Apr 10, 2015 0:37:39 GMT
From the other thread;
jaysic Avatar Apr 7, 2015 22:56:06 GMT -4 jaysic said: Yeah we are already good at CC. Unless we hit a deathstar, tarpit that. Without invulns or EW we can forget about that.
Our CC does need some serious tuning, though. Top of my head phone posting;
Let us run and charge dammit Scytal needs to go back to what it was Dima jump mc trygon/mawlocs beasts (please do not swear) assault grenades
Bonesword should give 5++ and each sword after the first lowers it by 1. give us extended carapace back
Edit; MCs need to go to at least ws4.
Carnifex DO rip up tanks with claws and talons, if you equip them that way. This has been discussed at length in multiple threads. While on Carnifex, their HoW should be concussive.
For the record, I don't think we're getting a new codex. Maybe we get GSC 4th quarter this year, but I don't see another 'Nid codex for 2 years at least. No one likes doing the Nid codex at GW. We don't ally into other armies well, so we're low on moving plastic off the shelves. We're current with 3 Dataslates, an updated IA, a campaign supplement book, all the WD models, and Deathstorm. A codex proper will be behind a whole, whole lotta stuff.
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Post by Sensei on Apr 10, 2015 2:16:59 GMT
After being steamrolled and completely controlled yesterday by the new Khorne, I want that for my Tyranids. Yep, yep. They are great. I'd even settle for the way that Harlequins play. They are tremendous in CC, like 'nids can only dream about. Khnorn does it even better since they get stronger as they die instead of derping like our do when they fall out of synapse. It's disheartening against Khorn to see your kills turn into daemon princes, bloodthirsters, bloodletters, and skull cannons. THAT'S what I want. Right now I feel like the tyranid codex is a bunch of unit entries the author's came up with individually. It feels like they wrote the rules for X creature, put it away and moved on to the next one. The Tyranid swarm should be fluid. Units should interact with each other in a positive way. I think of the Tyranid Hive Mind in a similar manner as a spider web...Individual strands are not capable of accomplishing much, but when linked together into a web they become exponentially stronger. I know my previous post talked about fixing the instinctive behaviour chart, but that is if I had to keep the current Instinctive Behavior.... I think a complete overhaul of Synapse and Instinctive Behaviour would be better. Get rid of instinctive behaviour completely. Synapse needs to be the army's main strength AND weakness. What I mean is that Synapse should buff or improve our units and we should be able to create a "web" of synapse that improves our army. At the same time, if our enemy can weaken our synapse web, our army should be weakened. Change the instinctive behaviour rule. Models out of synapse at the beginning of the turn must pass a leadership test. Passes mean they act as normal. Fails mean they must fall back towards the nearest synapse creature. If a unit falling back moves into synapse range, they automatically rally, but get no consolidation move. Units that failed a synapse test but the fell back into synapse range and rallied may still shoot and assault, however at a reduced effectiveness. They may only fire snap shots and do not benefit from the bonus attack for charging. Synapse then needs to be a tiered buff effect that depends on how many synapse units are in range. Tier 1 - Units in range of a single synapse model/unit gain fearless. Synapse units in range of on other synapse unit also gain a 6+ invulnerable. Tier 2 - Units in range of two synapse models/units gain tier 1 and fleet. Synapse units in range of two other synapse units have their invulnerable save improved to 5+ Tier 3 - Units in range of three or more synapse creatures gain tier 1 and 2, and gain preferred enemy. Synapse units in range of three or more other synapse units gain eternal warrior. Further, each synapse creature can provide a specific benefit to the army. Hive Tyrant - units in syanpse range of a hive tyrant at the beginning of the assault phase may charge in the same turn they ran. Prime/Warrior/Shrike - units in synapse range of Prime/warriors/shrikes at the beginning of the assault phase gain furious charge Tervigon - Units of gaunts in synapse range of a tervigon gain counterattack Zoanthrope - grant night vision to units in range Maleceptor - psychic units in range of maleceptor at the beginning of the psychic phase generate +1 warp charge Trygon prime - grants hatred to units in range at the beginning of the assault phase. I don't have my books with me right now so there might be better fitting buffs, but something along these lines does a number of things. 1 - It creates a unique flavour to the Tyranids. It also makes careful and tactical placing benefit our army, and places an emphasis on synapse creatures 2 - While it provides some really good benefits, they are not insurmountable to the enemy. The synapse web can be dismantled, but at the same time, an important synapse unit can be protected, and careful placement mitigates the issue of warriors being erased by S8 weapons. It appears powerful, but think about it - to gain Eternal warrior you need to have 4 synapse units in fairly close proximity. 3 - It creates an emphasis on synergy and using units that compliment each other. For example, rather than sending the flyrant off on its own, it's better to use them to buff other units and set up a charge. 4 - It opens up a lot of tactical options. Moving your Flyrant into position to allow a unit to run/charge or getting a warrior unit near a poison unit to boost their S so poison works better means our army can deal with threats as they come up and can ADAPT to provide provide benefits to specific units in reaction to event on the battelfield. At the same time, our opponent can attempt to deny specific advantages to us by targeting and eliminating specific synapse units. 5 - These add/fix a lot of issues that were lacking in the current dex, without making them permanent or too overpowered. It's possible to get the ability to run and charge, but not a guarantee. It's possible to mitigate warriors being doubled out by high strength weapons, but only if they are placed in the right spot. I know this is pure wishlisting, but when I started playing tyranids, I got drawn in by the way synapse used to make my army stronger. Yes there were far fewer buffs and rules back then, but I remember having epic battles with my friends where they focused on trying to take out my synapse creatures so weaken the rest of my army. If I had my way, Synapse would work something like that...
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Post by blackrainbow on Apr 10, 2015 6:01:10 GMT
Yep, yep. They are great. I'd even settle for the way that Harlequins play. They are tremendous in CC, like 'nids can only dream about. Khnorn does it even better since they get stronger as they die instead of derping like our do when they fall out of synapse. It's disheartening against Khorn to see your kills turn into daemon princes, bloodthirsters, bloodletters, and skull cannons. THAT'S what I want. Right now I feel like the tyranid codex is a bunch of unit entries the author's came up with individually. It feels like they wrote the rules for X creature, put it away and moved on to the next one. The Tyranid swarm should be fluid. Units should interact with each other in a positive way. I think of the Tyranid Hive Mind in a similar manner as a spider web...Individual strands are not capable of accomplishing much, but when linked together into a web they become exponentially stronger. I know my previous post talked about fixing the instinctive behaviour chart, but that is if I had to keep the current Instinctive Behavior.... I think a complete overhaul of Synapse and Instinctive Behaviour would be better. Get rid of instinctive behaviour completely. Synapse needs to be the army's main strength AND weakness. What I mean is that Synapse should buff or improve our units and we should be able to create a "web" of synapse that improves our army. At the same time, if our enemy can weaken our synapse web, our army should be weakened. Change the instinctive behaviour rule. Models out of synapse at the beginning of the turn must pass a leadership test. Passes mean they act as normal. Fails mean they must fall back towards the nearest synapse creature. If a unit falling back moves into synapse range, they automatically rally, but get no consolidation move. Units that failed a synapse test but the fell back into synapse range and rallied may still shoot and assault, however at a reduced effectiveness. They may only fire snap shots and do not benefit from the bonus attack for charging. Synapse then needs to be a tiered buff effect that depends on how many synapse units are in range. Tier 1 - Units in range of a single synapse model/unit gain fearless. Synapse units in range of on other synapse unit also gain a 6+ invulnerable. Tier 2 - Units in range of two synapse models/units gain tier 1 and fleet. Synapse units in range of two other synapse units have their invulnerable save improved to 5+ Tier 3 - Units in range of three or more synapse creatures gain tier 1 and 2, and gain preferred enemy. Synapse units in range of three or more other synapse units gain eternal warrior. Further, each synapse creature can provide a specific benefit to the army. Hive Tyrant - units in syanpse range of a hive tyrant at the beginning of the assault phase may charge in the same turn they ran. Prime/Warrior/Shrike - units in synapse range of Prime/warriors/shrikes at the beginning of the assault phase gain furious charge Tervigon - Units of gaunts in synapse range of a tervigon gain counterattack Zoanthrope - grant night vision to units in range Maleceptor - psychic units in range of maleceptor at the beginning of the psychic phase generate +1 warp charge Trygon prime - grants hatred to units in range at the beginning of the assault phase. I don't have my books with me right now so there might be better fitting buffs, but something along these lines does a number of things. 1 - It creates a unique flavour to the Tyranids. It also makes careful and tactical placing benefit our army, and places an emphasis on synapse creatures 2 - While it provides some really good benefits, they are not insurmountable to the enemy. The synapse web can be dismantled, but at the same time, an important synapse unit can be protected, and careful placement mitigates the issue of warriors being erased by S8 weapons. It appears powerful, but think about it - to gain Eternal warrior you need to have 4 synapse units in fairly close proximity. 3 - It creates an emphasis on synergy and using units that compliment each other. For example, rather than sending the flyrant off on its own, it's better to use them to buff other units and set up a charge. 4 - It opens up a lot of tactical options. Moving your Flyrant into position to allow a unit to run/charge or getting a warrior unit near a poison unit to boost their S so poison works better means our army can deal with threats as they come up and can ADAPT to provide provide benefits to specific units in reaction to event on the battelfield. At the same time, our opponent can attempt to deny specific advantages to us by targeting and eliminating specific synapse units. 5 - These add/fix a lot of issues that were lacking in the current dex, without making them permanent or too overpowered. It's possible to get the ability to run and charge, but not a guarantee. It's possible to mitigate warriors being doubled out by high strength weapons, but only if they are placed in the right spot. I know this is pure wishlisting, but when I started playing tyranids, I got drawn in by the way synapse used to make my army stronger. Yes there were far fewer buffs and rules back then, but I remember having epic battles with my friends where they focused on trying to take out my synapse creatures so weaken the rest of my army. If I had my way, Synapse would work something like that... Those are some wicked nice ideas, fresh and pretty well thought out. But, I see GW moving to either combine stuff and take away special flavors (SM codex), or go (oddly) and give each special snow-flake it's own codex (harlequin). Your synapse ideas go away from the first and are too expansive to be the second. I like them, and in combination of a SitW fix would be nice. The overlaying buff system seems just a bit much, like if they added that first tier alone it would be good. But for the most part, in all, your opening about how the dex was "made", individual bugs all thrown in a book, seems that the whole codex would (and does) need a cohesive re-do. AND add in your ideas. But, I don't see that for at least two years. We have been quite well supplied since our dex, as far as numerical options, so getting another update seems a bit far fetched. If they did a good dex, I'd wait another year - I guess we all have to wait anyways. I'll try to work with what we have until then. Won't stop dreaming, and incorporating good ideas like yours into my own home-brew dex.
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Post by Sensei on Apr 10, 2015 10:37:01 GMT
Thanks. That idea of Synapse was developed over many discussions with a good friend who plays and who has also been disappointed with the tyranid changes. He doesn't play nids, he plays against them and wants something interesting and challenging to play against. The tiered buffs look like a lot at first, but realistically, how often do you really have a single unit within 12 inches of three units providing synapse? It doesn't happen very often, even when you try. Honestly, I'd even settle for a revamp of SiTW (something like the 5+ to harness warp charge) and different synapse creatures providing unique buffs within their range. The fluff talks about how the leader beast psychically push the little guys to their limits, and I feel like that is a really creative way to get some flavour. Just a blanket fearless for all synapse and then each synapse creature provides a slightly different buff.
I agree with you - we are very, very, very unlikely to see a codex anytime soon. Unfortunately I think you are also correct in that we will not see anything like that. GW seems to be "dumbing down" the core rules and codexes and introducing flavour by creating "mini codexes" (albeit priced the same as a full codex....grrrrr) of subfactions with specialized units that can be allied in with other armies.
Good thing Tyranids can totally take advantage of all the new rules and units /sarcasm/
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Post by cypheon on Apr 10, 2015 16:43:22 GMT
What ever they do, don't make trygon a GC... They would double the cost of the box purely based on its type.
But shrikes need a better save and an option for an invuln upgrade so they can pretend to be worth half their current base cost compared to other jump units with better weapons, better saves, and free assault grenades.
Genestealers and hormagaunts should get old school fleet.
And Raveners... Poor sad sacks.... Should drop deep strike and replace it with something similar to mawlok, only instead of placing a blast, can place directly into combat (mebbe initiative test for target unit for chance to fire overwatch) and count as charging. You know, like they're supposed to, lorewise.
Hell for a giggle, a trygon/Ravener formation that allows Raveners to enter ongoing reserves using a trygon hole (deploy into combat, wipe a unit, consolidate into the hole).
Apart from that, I'd remove IB from carnifexes so they can do their job without requiring a babysitter. I only refer to IB itself, so your carnifexes still benefit from fearless if you bring a babysitter anyway.
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Post by voracious on Apr 10, 2015 22:49:20 GMT
For many good ideas that we give we are a team of second division.
Currently now our army exists to give fun to others, fulfilling their dreams of intergalactic epic battles against monsters which end up being the heroes and save the day.
Unfortunately, while we are the NPC in this game for more years.
Example of this point is the good opportunities appear around our codex in dataslate, formations, campaigns, etc... but all of this rules are off of the codex and not inside.
GW has long not known to do with the Tyranids at their own game and we have become a target with three pairs of legs for others to test their nice toys.
Sad...
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Post by vombatti on Apr 11, 2015 1:48:22 GMT
English is not my native language so please forgive any mistakes i might type.
Shadow in the Warp:add 1 to to the required amount of warp charge needed for all psychic tests made by non Tyranid-factions within 12".
Instinctive behavior:remove this rule completely, having weak leadership for nearly everything is enough of a weakness.
Boneswords:remove the instant death effect, it only drives the price of the swords higher and this game has too much instant death even without these,dorp 5 points form both pair and sword&whip.
scything talons back to giving +1 attack.
devourers with brain leech worms changed to range 18" str:5 ap:- assault 6
deathspitter with something added with the following profile:range 24" str:6 ap:4 assault 4
thorax weapons don't count towards the amount of weapons a model is allowed to fire
both venom cannons changed to assault 2, blast is removed
regeneration is made into it will not die,15 pts
Now we can start looking at units finally...
hive tyrant:drop in price about 35 points, wings are made more expensive, armored shell brought back,in-build 5+ inv
tyrant guard:2+ armor save,increase price to 60 pts per model, if taken the tyrant must join them(so you can't just take them with flyrant only to leave them behind....kinda defeats the point of the unit)
tyranid prime:name change to aplha warrior,drop in cost to 100 pts, can take wings.
tervigon: drop 20 pts from price
broodlord:moved to HQ, close combat attacks are ap2, option to buy 3+ armor save....just bring back 4th edition broodlord.
the Swarmlord:4+ inv always, add more special rules to swarm leader.
deathleaper:fine as is
old one eye:become unit upgrade to carnifex brood, 5 wounds, ws4, remove the aplha leader rule, fnp
tyranid warriors: increase to s5 t5,price increase to 40 pts per model, unit of warriors can be chosen as warlord.
genestealers:+1 attack,ignore difficult terrain(including when charging), either old rending(on to-hit instead of to-wound) or shred
termagants:fine as is
hormagaunts:-1 attack(scytalons make up for it), ws4
rippers:unit type changed to beasts.
hive guard:price increased to 60 pts, bs4
lictors:4+ inv in close combat, can only be snapfired in the turn after they deepstrike.
zoanthropes:make warp blast into a shooting attack instead of psychic power, slow and purposeful
venomthropes:fine as is
haruspex:ws5, a4, can charge after running(old fleet)
pyrovore: re-designed into "light monstrous creature" with s5 t5 w4 and 4+ armor save along with improved combat stats, flamespurt made into torrent and ap reduced to 5
shrikes:same as warriors
raveners:same as warriors
sky-slashers: point drop
gargoyle:fine as is
harpy:fine as is
hive crone:fine as is
spore mines: fine as is
carnifex:allow carnifexes to take both stranglethorn and heavy venom cannon
biovore:fine as is
trygon:old fleet
trygon prime:old fleet
mawloc:only scatter d6 if deepstrikes into synapse range
exocrine:i was so excited during rumour mill for our current codex that we get a new "artillery" monster...instead we got range 24" monster. make exocrine into a super biovore with barrage weapon and atleast 48 range. nerf the ap of the gun
tyrannofex: acid spray gets rending, bs4
not gonna comment on "outside the codex" units as i don't have much experience with those yet other than that mucolids needs to be around 25 pts instead of 15.
Massive thank you to anyone who actually read all of this.
ps:fixed couple of typos, changed some stuff
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Post by Sensei on Apr 11, 2015 4:35:11 GMT
Vombatti - Love a lot of these ideas. They are very in line with my thinking as well.
I would disagree on the point increase on hive guard....they got a drop in BS and a point increase in this dex, so if they go back up to BS they are priced about right. If they don't, they should drop in price.
Genestealers need some sort of special rule or at least an optional biomorph to deliver them to combat and fight at initiative. Their issue is that if they step over a stone, they lose their initiative when the whole point of taking them is to get those attacks in first. At this point, all they need is a way to get INTO combat, and I would happily pay a points cost to get it.
The pyrovore is an odd duck. I agree it needs torrent, but it even with torrent, it still feels like it is lacking.....something. I think allowing pyrovores to be purchased in broods of three, but then distributed (only one pyro per unit) into other units.
Biovore/spore mines need to cause pinning again.
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Post by krede on Apr 11, 2015 5:50:16 GMT
Synapse is a neat idea, but to be honest, The target audience for 40k are 12-16 year old kids, so it should probably be toned down to be only a buff giving fearless if within range, or something similar to keep it simple and streamline the game.
And though it is true that some units only needs some few tweeks to be viable again, the fact remains that GW is in business to sell plastic, nothing else. The rules are just a means to that end. With the recent developments in WHFB it should be obvious that this is the case. So for every unit that needs "fixing" you will need to ask yourself "what is in it for gw" take genestealers as an example... no one play them , and everyone has them at the bottom of the drawer still on the sprue.. so.. would giving them better rules make GW shift any more of them? not likely. Would making a cool new plastic kit with great rules sell more models ?... So what I think we will be most likely to see , is a new model now and then, with a data slate or formation to back it up rules wise. Then in a couple of years, it will get written into the next codex, with a nerf to its rules to keep it in line.
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Post by vombatti on Apr 11, 2015 12:21:12 GMT
Genestealers indeed have a major problem getting into close combat, however in my experience even if they get there they are kind of underwhelming. 2 str 4 rending attacks isn't that impresive these days especially when you consider that genestealers can't take hits in melee themselves.
I'd avoid things like assaulting from outflank because it always felt kinda overpowered in some sense.
allowing genes to buy 4+ armor save like in 4th edition(my favourite codex as anyone can see from my earlier list) might help little as well as the assault grenades.
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Post by Halollet on Apr 11, 2015 18:55:03 GMT
Synapse is a neat idea, but to be honest, The target audience for 40k are 12-16 year old kids, so it should probably be toned down to be only a buff giving fearless if within range, or something similar to keep it simple and streamline the game. And though it is true that some units only needs some few tweeks to be viable again, the fact remains that GW is in business to sell plastic, nothing else. The rules are just a means to that end. With the recent developments in WHFB it should be obvious that this is the case. So for every unit that needs "fixing" you will need to ask yourself "what is in it for gw" take genestealers as an example... no one play them , and everyone has them at the bottom of the drawer still on the sprue.. so.. would giving them better rules make GW shift any more of them? not likely. Would making a cool new plastic kit with great rules sell more models ?... So what I think we will be most likely to see , is a new model now and then, with a data slate or formation to back it up rules wise. Then in a couple of years, it will get written into the next codex, with a nerf to its rules to keep it in line. Well, if sell more plastic is the goal then a new broodlord model and all the problems stealers have are solved with a broodlord then we get awesome and gw get $$$. Not sure how that would work but its a thought.
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Post by Davor on Apr 11, 2015 19:19:57 GMT
Already commented on this subject in a previous thread. Make Tervigons able to have a transport capacity of 15 instead of it's spawn ability (buy the upgraded or free swap out, don't care which) and make it an "Assault vehicle." Why? So 15 gaunts don't get hit, just to get to a destination just as fast or should I say as slow? Then the Tervigon can't make anymore troops? I don't think this is a good trade off. I like the Tervigon has the ability to keep making troops. Also in my opinion, tyranids don't use transports. It just seems so UnTyranid.
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Post by gigasnail on Apr 11, 2015 19:22:11 GMT
...you do understand why transports are good, right?
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