Genestealer General Strategy Questions

[stormcrowfleet]

Greetings people (happy holydays btw !)

I bought the new box with Blood Angels (I also play those !), and I just finished building the lord and his jeanstealer. But I never played those, or even watched tactica or whatever. I really like the model and the fluff, so I want to integrate them, but I don't know how to play them properly. I thought about infiltrating them in building with Lictors or Deathleaper and then charging on turn 2. Would it be better to outflank ? To try and come out of a hole in the ground by a Trygon (I play those) ? I plan on running them with the scything talons for maximum attacks since I don't have a big number of them (only the one in the box; so I think it's 8 or something). 

Any tips on those guys ? 

Thank you. 

[yoritomo]

Sad to say, but the consensus is that stealers suck and are better left decorating a shelf than on the battlefield. While I personally disagree with the majority opinion, I must tell you that you will probably have a tough time running them for a while.

Don't get me wrong. I want you to play genestealers. I believe that there is value in taking the high road here because at the end of the day it will make you a better player. Anything you learn by keeping your stealers alive and getting them into assault can be applied to just about any other unit in the tyranid codex.



Some things that I find helpful:

Advancing with your stealers is generally a bad idea. Okay, I get it, this sounds stupid but hear me out. Wherever you set your stealers up will have the best cover. If you advance your going to have to leave that good cover (and potentially have no cover). This is where stealers die in droves. The solution is to not move them. You can get away with this if you place them on an objective when you deploy them. If your opponent want that objective then HE has to advance on YOU. There is a big difference there. And if he doesn't want to advance on your stealers then you get a free objective.

Be careful how you infiltrate. Anything that is away from the main body of your army draws attention, genestealers do not like attention. Being on the fringe taking an isolated objective is usually fine. Treating infiltrating as a free 6" move before the game starts is just going to get them killed. Trust me, unless you have a conga line to a venomthrope the will always die if you try to infiltrate them into combat on turn 2.

I'm not a big fan of outflanking. There are times when it is good to outflank, but they are much fewer than you think.

I've also never seen stealers come out of a trygon hole and do something useful. Come to think of it, I've never seen anything come out of a trygon hole and do something useful. If you can make trygon holes work than moe power to you. I personally wouldn't waste my time.

Stealers need support too. Unless they are on a fringe objective, stealers improve greatly when around a venomthrope. A Malenthrope is better, but not everyone has Forge World stuff.

Just because you infiltrate doesn't mean you can't deploy them in your deployment zone. If there is no good place to infiltrate them then just deploy them with the rest of your army. If you force them into a bad spot then they just die. If you put them with the army then at least you have a counter assault unit if things go south.


Keep them cheap. There is a good chance that no matter what you do your stealers are going to die. Don't waste a bunch of points on them.


I hope this helps. Like I said, give them a shot. Just be patience, it could take a while before you get the hang of them.

[ZergLord]

Keep them in minimal squads, infiltrate them or outflank them out of LOS, and use them to grab objectives. I think this is the best way to run Stealers.

[gigasnail]

they're generally too expensive and fragile. some folks have used them as either backline objective discouragement (keep a medium sized unit out in your backfield in cover on an objective, it's annoying to dislodge when it has shrouding and a 2+ cover save from a malanthrope/venomthrope) or as MSU objective grabbers (multiple small, cheap units).

the issue is they're 14 points per model, which makes them sort of the opposite of cheap even in small units.

[mattblowers]

Dec 27, 2014 10:21:28 GMT yoritomo said:

Sad to say, but the consensus is that stealers suck and are better left decorating a shelf than on the battlefield. While I personally disagree with the majority opinion, I must tell you that you will probably have a tough time running them for a while.

.....Don't waste a bunch of points on them.


....Just be patience, it could take a while before you get the hang of them.

This. You have to be patient. Don't worry about what every one else says about them. They are exceptionally hard to play well, but at 70 points for a minimum bare bones unit, they aren't too bad if you use them correctly. I ran a full out genestealer list back in September, click here to read about how I played them, you might find it helpful.

That being said, you will find different forms of advice from people here on the hive. Yoritomo and I both like them but disagree a bit on how to play them. I say take max MSU to really get the usefulness out of them. I like outflanking them to grab far objectives, he likes setting them on objectives on his own end. The important bit is that we both like using them to sit on objectives and lashing out at units that get too close. They are especially good at killing power armor troops. I like playing them more like special forces: deploy them far from your front lines to harass the enemy in his home territory and force protective decisions to counteract their threat. Just like special forces, I'm most happy when they get in quietly and do their work with little attention paid to them. However, I also am happy when my opponent focuses on them and wastes vital resources to go after them. My way capitalizes on their ability to work without being subject to instinctive behavior ruining your day. They aren't as good as lictors, but they perform a similar role for me.

[stormcrowfleet]

@yori :

Thanks for all the tips. From what everyone seems to be saying, putting them on a objective and waiting for a prey seems to be the best. I will follow that advice ! I got 2 Malanthrope, so I'll try and keep them near those.

As for the Trygon, my gaming group is far from being competitive, we mostly play fun/fluff list. I generally use a Trygon Prime with the formation that makes you return gant/gaunt, therefore I return them directly from the backfield of my enemy.

zerg :
I like the MSU idea, but since I only got 8 + the broodlord from the pack, I'm gonna have to run them all, because running just 5 of them while benching the amazing model that is the new lord would be sad. But thanks.

@giga :
I really like your idea of backfield discouragement. I guess that against some players, it cannot be very effective (pods, etc.). I will definitivly deploy them as such sometimes.

@matt :
I will read your post, thanks.

[gigasnail]

if your group is mostly fluff players, you'll do fine with stealers.

otherwise, well, good luck.

[slithernaut]

Dec 27, 2014 22:08:50 GMT gigasnail said:

if your group is mostly fluff players, you'll do fine with stealers.

otherwise, well, good luck.

Admitted, its one of my more fluffy lists, but I have had success against blood angels and sentinals of terra with this list.


Stealers have to be used with other fast, threats that scare your opponent. 1 Flyrant, 30 gargolyes, 9 shrikes and 9 sky slashers(if you're feeling lame bring a crone instead) moving up the center of the field takes the heat of my 40 out flanking stealers. The warlord Deathleaper, and 3 idv lictors join the stealer broods and mawloc bomb the

Not as fluffy as my pyrovore/haruspex/18 ripper swarms strong feeder list. Yeah old one eye is the wardlord.

[LordPathos]

There is a guy from my LGS that uses 2 units of genestealers. I'm not sure if he runs extra biomorphs than default, but I think he runs a few more than the minimum size. I asked them how they work out for him and he says he uses them as distraction units. You either have them charging a high priority unit or you have a Flyrant or a DeviFex shooting you to pieces. I've always loved genestealers and since 4th Edition I would run at least 2 even with my TMC lists. Unfortunately, I need to follow the advice from Yori and matt, because I have fallen into that consensus that Genestealers suck. But I agree with everything they said. Use them multiple times with multiple builds and see how they work. If they do, great! You now have a deadly CC unit. If they don't, stinks, but now you can add another Carnifex!

[gigasnail]

they're really too expensive to do this well outside of the friendzone.

[Yautja]

Dec 27, 2014 11:11:56 GMT gigasnail said:

they're generally too expensive and fragile. some folks have used them as either backline objective discouragement (keep a medium sized unit out in your backfield in cover on an objective, it's annoying to dislodge when it has shrouding and a 2+ cover save from a malanthrope/venomthrope) or as MSU objective grabbers (multiple small, cheap units).

the issue is they're 14 points per model, which makes them sort of the opposite of cheap even in small units.

Even in this suggested scenario I'd probably prefer CC Warriors, just for the better armour and flesh hooks

PS - yes I'm a biased Warrior lover.

[blackrainbow]

I play around with two units some times. One bare unit, the other with a BL with scything talons (not the whole squad, just the BL). Even in fluffy lists, they are more turn 3 entries than anything else. They still work pretty well as psychological units, as the whole "well if I get into combat with X, next turn the genestealers hit my flank and wipe me out".

For running your little band of brothers, put the fancy-pants new broodlord in there, but keep it minimum after him. Sneek'em up a turn or two, perhaps secure a juicy objective, but don't jump to combat before turn 3 (unless they make some crazy mistakes). They really do excel in close combat, BL especially, but they are pretty bad in Every other situation and place.

I can hardly wait for 8th Ed when I take my 30 off the shelf again.

[Xenos]

I've been playing with Stealers quite a bit because I love the models and want to make them work. I don't like listening to nay-sayers when it comes to 40k units, I think if you really love a unit you can find a way to make it work. So far I've noticed the following.

Lots of smaller units work well when Infiltrated. There is a formation that lets you Infiltrate 5 squads of 5 withing 6" of the enemy, so long as they're in ruins. This is a great formation but you could also do it with 4 squads of 5-8. It's purpose is to delay the enemy and make them panic - force them out of their battle plan early.

You can expect to assault with 30-60% of your Genestealers on a good day. Don't get upset when you take half of them off the table on turn 1. Remind yourself of the purpose they served.

An ideal squad for assaulting is 6-8 strong with Scy tals. 5 if too few to cause damage; you need big dice rolls to get the Rends out. That's why Scy Tals are so expensive, they help you reach the critical level where 6s are expected rather than hoped for. You can still take squads of 5 but use them as distractions and objective capping instead of assaulting.

Pinning is your friend. There's a reason it's the only psychic power that the Broodlord has - this is the Stealer's equivalent of assault grenades. The main benefit is that you can assault pinned units in cover without suffering a loss of initiative, and also you don't get overwatched (expect to lose 1-2 stealers for each tactical squad you assault just from overwatch). It's very unreliable though so don't count on it unless you have lots of Barbed Stranglers in support.

Don't assault anything with a flamer unless you have a Broodlord to soak up the damage.

Finally, and I think this has been mentioned before, be patient. Having Stealers lurking in buildings across the board is a benefit in itself, it will make your opponent wary. Stealers shine in Turn 3 onwards, when most units have disembarked and are in the midfield. That's when they should come out to play. To help with this, keep a Venomthrope nearby for a 2+ cover save in ruins. Your opponent will be loathe to flush them out without a flamer.

In summary - lots of small units, have at least 6+ if you want to cause damage, cause pinning tests, and be patient.

[gigasnail]

You can't take the new BL on his own.

[lordsia]

A good way to squeeze a little extra out of the Stealers is to mix "Scythers" with normal 'Stealers, the way you might mix Devilgaunts with normal 'Gants; this makes them hit just a little harder, while having a couple of spare bodies to soak up damage without loosing too much attack power. As you can see from the simple math-hammer below, pure Scythe-Stealer units only have a marginal advantage on the charge, and not that much better in later turns - and only if they get there without any casualties. As numbers drop, Scythers lose hitting power faster than normal Stealers. The mixed unit is virtually as good as the pure Scythers at full strength, but doesn't lose hitting power any faster than plain Stealers, which lets them keep that extra punch until they are almost wiped out.

For 252 points, you can get one of the below;

• 14 Genestealers with Scything Talons: At full strength, they get 56 attacks on the charge (42 without the bonus), but at half strength only 28 and 21, respectively - and it only takes 7 casualties to reduce them to half strength.
  

• 16 Genestealers with 7 Scything Talons: At full strength, they get 55 attacks on the charge (39 without the bonus), but at half strength they get 31 and 23, respectively - and it takes 8 casualties to reduce them to half strength. If they only take seven casualties, they get 34 and 25.
  
• 18 Genestealers without Scything Talons: At full strength, they get 54 attacks on the charge (36 without the bonus), but at half strength only 27 and 16, respectively - though it takes 9 casualties to reduce them to half strength. If they only take seven casualties, they get 33 and 20.

I have yet to try it (not having bought one yet), but I think that coupling the Stealers with a Sporocysts might work wonders; it would provide pie-plates to soften up hordes which 'Stealers are bad at dealing with, and the spore mines are even better. They provide cover saves against or even soak up enemy shooting, they screen enemy assaults, and offensively they can eat up overwatch and/or soften up targets. Tyrannocytes might work, but they do not allow assaults... Which is, I suppose, somewhat reasonable considering what Genestealers could do if dropped straight into CQC...