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Post by gigasnail on Oct 17, 2014 20:25:02 GMT
I can't disagree with him enough. There is no codex parity, there are limited options some books have that aren't outright ass. Other books do not suffer from this issue. It's an awful idea.
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Post by tag8833 on Oct 17, 2014 21:08:11 GMT
I can't disagree with him enough. There is no codex parity, there are limited options some books have that aren't outright ass. Other books do not suffer from this issue. It's an awful idea. Which is the awful idea? Limiting the number of detachments or some sort of Highlanderesc army composition rules?
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Post by Mauler on Oct 17, 2014 21:09:53 GMT
I can't disagree with him enough. There is no codex parity, there are limited options some books have that aren't outright ass. Other books do not suffer from this issue. It's an awful idea. I didn't say that there was. Spam is an issue, placing restrictions prevent that. But please do explain your point.
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Post by mattblowers on Oct 17, 2014 21:30:02 GMT
While I preferred the days of 0-x limits on units, I hate those limits without multiple CADs. Not b/c I'm afraid of the spam my opponent will bring, but b/c I want to try and make some (please do not swear) (can't the mods change c-rappy so it's not a swear word?) models try and work and I can't do that without more slots. With the importance of synapse and cover to our codex, I never have the slots available to run lictors, but I would love to try. I threw some in list this past week to try and make Mawlocs more reliable and I lost a unit of shrikes that I couldn't keep in my bubble b/c I had to babysit with my Malanthrope. It was purge the alien so I couldn't win without tabling my opponent (GK) and losing that unit of shrikes hurt and my lictors failed a moral check and ran away. I'm not taking cheese, but when you have bad units, or units that require other units to work well, you need more slots.
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Post by gigasnail on Oct 17, 2014 21:46:11 GMT
I can't disagree with him enough. There is no codex parity, there are limited options some books have that aren't outright ass. Other books do not suffer from this issue. It's an awful idea. I didn't say that there was. Spam is an issue, placing restrictions prevent that. But please do explain your point. Codexes at the bottom end of the power spectrum/poor internal balance will be hurt worse than Codexes that have multiple viable choices by FOC/unit restrictions.
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Post by tag8833 on Oct 17, 2014 22:25:05 GMT
I didn't say that there was. Spam is an issue, placing restrictions prevent that. But please do explain your point. Codexes at the bottom end of the power spectrum/poor internal balance will be hurt worse than Codexes that have multiple viable choices by FOC/unit restrictions. I think many of the top end codexes are mainly at the top because they are able to spam certain units. Limit Eldar to 1 Wave Serpent, and 1 Wraith Knight, and they are downright tame by comparison to what they are now. Necrons perhaps fall all of the way to the very bottom of the power curve if they can only take 1 Annihilation Barge and 1 Night Scythe. Demons without the ability to spam WC3 units, aren't able to summon to the level of absurdity we see. 1 imperial Knight is barely a threat to anyone. It is only when they are spammed out that they mess people up. Meanwhile Orks, an army considered at the bottom of the heap right now, would do reasonably well with a spam prevention system in place. They would still find themselves being havested by Tau and have a rough time with Tyranids, but now they do better against basically everybody else. You position that Spam is good because codexes are unbalanced doesn't really hold water. Spam is bad. Codex imbalance is bad. Right now TO's are taking the first very, very tentative steps to address spam. I hope that will empower them to address codex imbalance, but it might be a long time before we see that sort of courage. Before 7th edition came out when I thought about it. The best case scenario was that it addressed all of the problems of 6th, and made 40k a balanced and fun game. The 2nd best case scenario was that it was so epicly bad that the community embraced an alternative ruleset create by people who care about the game and its players. Neither of those things happened completely, but the aggressive failure of the Missions, Terrain, and Army Composition rules has prompted a little bit of scenario #2. I'm not sure how far it will go. Most likely some sort of scism where 2/3 of tourneygoers embrace something like Highlander, escalating pricing, or Swedish Comp while 1/3 of tourneygoers gravitate more and more to a permissive spam / Deathstar / flavor of the month army comp, and both groups pick up the slack and start FAQing things that GW has elected to ignore.
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Post by gigasnail on Oct 17, 2014 22:34:42 GMT
Orks with 1 trukk or battle wagon or 1 unit of lootas are probably unplayable.
Crons and eldar would take a kick in the junk, for sure. And still be better than the rest. SM are already just taking one or two key units (I.e. You don't generally see centuriOns spammed, it's. Deathstars/super unit) outside of pod spam/rhino rush and will still roll everyone. Nids would get a fex. A flyrant.
Pass, keep the comp in themed events/fluff land where it belongs.
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Post by Jabberwocky on Oct 17, 2014 22:37:03 GMT
Eldar would still hurt with 1 wave serpent, 1 big biker blob, 1 wraithknight, 1 max squad of walkers, 1 farseer, 1 eldrad, 1 dark reapers, etc. There are just so many good units.
Honestly the key to balance is actually balancing the units, not just limiting the obviously better ones. That's just limited imbalance.
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Post by glassiya on Oct 18, 2014 6:58:35 GMT
A bit of slowpoking here, but still:
I'm somewhat new player - I got familiarized with tabletop by reading 3rd/4rd Tyranid codexes, loved them for biomorphs and stuff; then I found out that it's actually 5th codex that matters now; then I started to read and learn 5th edition rules; then I came to my local club JUST BEFORE 6th dropped, so no one played 5th anymore; so I had to adapt to these 6th edition, and 6,5 codex, and 7th ruleset as they kept coming.
And you know what? I love 7th for now. Sure, it has its problems (starting from jink being cover save, while they should be separate), but overall, I think it works. Maelstrom was truly epic. It's really fun to see people whining about it being "unbalanced totally random (please do not swear)" are guys who still trying to run 6th edition gunlines and getting punished for that. When you have all-around army balanced army, prepared to deal with many different objectives, you just roll ove them. They shoot you, and shoot you, and shoot you... and in the end, they lost, and you've won, and they go whining again. It's so awesome.
The only change we added in our club is playing it with a single card deck for both players - it's much more interesting, and allows you more control over a game.
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Post by Mauler on Oct 18, 2014 9:16:43 GMT
Orks with 1 trukk or battle wagon or 1 unit of lootas are probably unplayable. Crons and eldar would take a kick in the junk, for sure. And still be better than the rest. SM are already just taking one or two key units (I.e. You don't generally see centuriOns spammed, it's. Deathstars/super unit) outside of pod spam/rhino rush and will still roll everyone. Nids would get a fex. A flyrant. Pass, keep the comp in themed events/fluff land where it belongs. With my suggestion Orks would get Trukks galore but yup, only one Battlewagon. Mek Guns are solid choices, the Traktor is brutal against anything flying and the others are decent. Not exactly unplayable by far. Nids would get three 'Fexes, one full slot, but yup, one Flyrant. Less crutch-units, more variation in skill. We'd actually suffer less than some if restrictions were per detachment; another flying HQ for us isn't really a burden with the current book. I'm all for keeping the spam out of the comp and keeping it in themed events where it belongs.
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Post by mattblowers on Oct 18, 2014 14:01:03 GMT
Honestly the key to balance is actually balancing the units, not just limiting the obviously better ones. That's just limited imbalance. Well said. With my suggestion Orks would get Trukks galore but yup, only one Battlewagon. Mek Guns are solid choices, the Traktor is brutal against anything flying and the others are decent. Not exactly unplayable by far. Nids would get three 'Fexes, one full slot, but yup, one Flyrant. Less crutch-units, more variation in skill. We'd actually suffer less than some if restrictions were per detachment; another flying HQ for us isn't really a burden with the current book. I'm all for keeping the spam out of the comp and keeping it in themed events where it belongs. Problem with all these fixes is that what you are left with is Maulerhammer and not Warhammer. TOs can do what they want, but I hate placing lots of undo restrictions more than spam. It always has unintended consequences.
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Post by Mauler on Oct 18, 2014 14:20:06 GMT
Honestly the key to balance is actually balancing the units, not just limiting the obviously better ones. That's just limited imbalance. Well said. With my suggestion Orks would get Trukks galore but yup, only one Battlewagon. Mek Guns are solid choices, the Traktor is brutal against anything flying and the others are decent. Not exactly unplayable by far. Nids would get three 'Fexes, one full slot, but yup, one Flyrant. Less crutch-units, more variation in skill. We'd actually suffer less than some if restrictions were per detachment; another flying HQ for us isn't really a burden with the current book. I'm all for keeping the spam out of the comp and keeping it in themed events where it belongs. Problem with all these fixes is that what you are left with is Maulerhammer and not Warhammer. TOs can do what they want, but I hate placing lots of undo restrictions more than spam. It always has unintended consequences. I'm OK with Maulhammer!! Well, unless it's tested and cripples some armies too much but that's what testing is for
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Post by tag8833 on Oct 18, 2014 14:46:44 GMT
Orks with 1 trukk or battle wagon or 1 unit of lootas are probably unplayable. I keep seeing this get quoted, and I know this is not an Ork Tactica forum, but clearly Giga was unfamiliar with the new Ork Codex. He was referencing the old codex who would indeed have been crushed. In the new codex every Ork FOC slot is stacked with only the Troops being disappointing. Their troops suffer from Mob Rule in the same way our Troops suffer from Synapse. Orks being a 2nd army of mine I could easily build a Highlander Ork list that would stomp face. Just a little rundown of viable units. HQ: Warboss, Painboy, Big Mek Elite: MegaNobz, Tankbustas, Grot Tanks and to a lesser extent Burna Boyz Troops: ..... Fast: Warbikers, Stormboyz, DeffKoptas, Warbuggies, and to a lesser extend dakkajets Heavy: Mek Gunz, Lootas, Looted Wagon, and to a lesser extent Flash Gitz, Deff Dreds, and several forgeworld units.
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Post by mattblowers on Oct 18, 2014 17:37:32 GMT
Orks with 1 trukk or battle wagon or 1 unit of lootas are probably unplayable. I keep seeing this get quoted, and I know this is not an Ork Tactica forum, but clearly Giga was unfamiliar with the new Ork Codex. He was referencing the old codex who would indeed have been crushed. In the new codex every Ork FOC slot is stacked with only the Troops being disappointing. Their troops suffer from Mob Rule in the same way our Troops suffer from Synapse. Orks being a 2nd army of mine I could easily build a Highlander Ork list that would stomp face. Just a little rundown of viable units. HQ: Warboss, Painboy, Big Mek Elite: MegaNobz, Tankbustas, Grot Tanks and to a lesser extent Burna Boyz Troops: ..... Fast: Warbikers, Stormboyz, DeffKoptas, Warbuggies, and to a lesser extend dakkajets Heavy: Mek Gunz, Lootas, Looted Wagon, and to a lesser extent Flash Gitz, Deff Dreds, and several forgeworld units. Here's the issue: while all those units might be good, they don't necessarily provide a lot of synergy. Your list has to play well together. Spamming isn't because people want to be an ass, it's because you are trying to make your list do something really well. Make Wraithknights toughness and strength 6, centurions AP 3, riptides T5, etc and spam won't be such an issue.
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Post by gigasnail on Oct 18, 2014 17:44:35 GMT
Orks with 1 trukk or battle wagon or 1 unit of lootas are probably unplayable. Crons and eldar would take a kick in the junk, for sure. And still be better than the rest. SM are already just taking one or two key units (I.e. You don't generally see centuriOns spammed, it's. Deathstars/super unit) outside of pod spam/rhino rush and will still roll everyone. Nids would get a fex. A flyrant. Pass, keep the comp in themed events/fluff land where it belongs. With my suggestion Orks would get Trukks galore but yup, only one Battlewagon. Mek Guns are solid choices, the Traktor is brutal against anything flying and the others are decent. Not exactly unplayable by far. Nids would get three 'Fexes, one full slot, but yup, one Flyrant. Less crutch-units, more variation in skill. We'd actually suffer less than some if restrictions were per detachment; another flying HQ for us isn't really a burden with the current book. I'm all for keeping the spam out of the comp and keeping it in themed events where it belongs.
yes, because this fixes things like centstar, which requires so much skill to play. no.
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