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Post by FTGTEvan on Sept 8, 2014 16:15:09 GMT
To give some background, I recently returned from NOVA and generally didn't have a great time playing my list. It was a LAN list with double flyrant (1 w/Hive Commander), 25 gants w/ 20 devs, 3 DS Rippers, 4 warriors, 2 zoeys, a venom, 2 Crones, and a Mawloc.
The main issue was the stay at home elements weren't very fast or durable, and would get stomped by just about anything that came by. It was also pretty boring to play, even when things went well. In the last game of the tournament, I was playing a repeat opponent who let me switch up my list. I went much more combat heavy and enjoyed playing the list a lot more.
I've adapted that list a bit and thrown this together. It's 1845, so in a non-FW environment, the Malanthrope becomes a pair of Venoms. It's also using the most recent NOVA creation rules that allow a self-ally.
2xFlyrant: 2xDevourers, Electroshock Grubs Flyrant: Adrenal, Reaper, Old Adversary, Hive Commander 2x3 Rippers: Deep Strike 3 Warriors: Barbed Strangler Malanthrope 2x Crone 5 Raveners: Rending Claws 2 Carnifex: Crushing Claws, Adrenal Glands
This list is much more aggressive, leaving nothing in the backfield. The fexes act as bodyguard for the Malanthrope and move upfield behind Raveners and the Swooping CC Flyrant. Meanwhile the 4 Swooping FMCs do their thing. In a multi-CAD environment, the Warriors are swapped for stealers and a third set of Rippers, dropping Hive Commander.
In the admittedly small sample size of 1 game, the CC flyrant was a boss. He jinked to avoid shooting turn 1, then crashed into unit after unit, melting anything he touched. There are certainly units that can stand up to him, but the Raveners can keep pace and support.
Anyway, any thoughts? Anyone have any advice or experience running something similar?
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Post by coredump on Sept 9, 2014 17:28:41 GMT
First, heard you on the FTN podcast. I was rooting for you as you tried to explain the rules to them. I am really liking the idea of the malanthrope/CC flyrant, I think it can work out well. Haven't had the chance to try it. I think 1 crone should be sufficient. They aren't that great once the enemy flyers go down; one should be enough to deal with xenos in cover. If you switch the crone, or the raveners for another Fex, you can run the Wrecker Node, (for non Nova style events) I think I would prefer shrikes to raveners. What is hive commander for? Do you need all those upgrades on the CCtyrant? Shred and Old Adversary seem to overlap. Is AG worth it for a flyrant? (I don't have answers to these, just get nervous around a 300pt HT) The warriors seem like an odd fit, what am I missing? OT: Did you get a chance to talk with Thomas Lanigan? He got the top Nid prize, but I can't find anything about him anywhere.
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Post by FTGTEvan on Sept 9, 2014 18:13:22 GMT
Thanks, Core. Glad you heard the podcast, it was fun. I like the paired crones in part for facing Imperial Knights - their base size helps force a Knight to have to move through cover. That said, I like the Wrecker Node idea - I hadn't considered that. Hive Commander is solely to outflank the Warriors - they're not tough enough I think to really be with the main aggression force. Outflank really is just to allow for alternate deployment to get different options for objective grabbing and backfield harass. That said, like you mentioned, they don't quite fit. I am leaning a bit more to Stealers and some more Rippers. I really like the AG on the CC flyrant for Fleet - don't want to miss a make-able charge due to poor dice. The +1S is a bonus (takes him to 8 on the charge). I'll admit the Old Adversary is the more borderline upgrade, but it takes him from 4 hits to 4.67 hits on the charge. With shred it will get an extra wound a bit over 50% of the time. I could see the shrikes over raveners, but I don't have any of the former, and love the models for the latter. OT: No, I didn't talk to him. I think these are his nids, though:
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Post by coredump on Sept 9, 2014 20:14:03 GMT
I assume if the warriors are outflanking, they are not there for synapse. If the warriors are not needed for synapse, I just don't see them being worth their points. Those 120pts is another naked Fex, or 4 naked raveners/shrikes. (Shrikes fit your theme, and supply synapse.)
There are some decent Shrike conversions using ravener bodies, and since their is no requirement for shrikes to have wings, some folks are just using the ravener model as is.
There is always a reason to take more CC upgrades... but at some point its just too much to spend. Now, I have no idea exactly where that line is, but you need to be sure those points are worth the investment.
If you keep AG and OA; could you drop Reaper for LW/BS? You could even toss in Poison if you wanted.
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Post by FTGTEvan on Sept 9, 2014 20:28:24 GMT
Yeah, think 3 DS Rippers and 5 Genestealers is probably a better use of points - more ObSec.
Agreed, the CC flyrant is borderline too upgraded. I like Reaper over Traditional BS/LW and poison in part because it's not much more and Poison got nerfed a bit. Plus, wounding a Wraithknight on 4s rerolling wounds is much preferred to just straight 4s. That said, if I need those 15 points to fit something, OA is definitely going away first.
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Post by blackrainbow on Sept 10, 2014 6:44:58 GMT
Who was your repeat opponent? Pretty excited to hit your blog and check the pics and what-not out. I'm just a few hours south, so perhaps next year I will make the swing up there (assuming painting is all finished, as always).
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Post by gigasnail on Sept 10, 2014 6:59:19 GMT
The FTN guys deviate away from fratboy 40k? They were pretty difficult to watch, it made my teeth hurt. Which episode were you on, I'd like to catch it.
Seconding shrikes > Raveners. Superior in pretty much all respects. Also seconding wtf on outflanking wars. Can easily grab 5 stealers cheaper and do the same thing, saving points on HC too, or add more rippers if you want to go all in with them.
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Post by Yautja on Sept 10, 2014 8:26:56 GMT
I'd dump Old Adversary for sure. If you want to spend loads of points, you might as well get the Ymgarl Factor.
EDIT - holy cow he'd have S9 on the charge then.
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Post by FTGTEvan on Sept 10, 2014 12:40:24 GMT
blackrainbow: My repeat opponent was a Necron player, Andy. His original list was Veil-heavy- 2 veilTeks plus Obyron. Used that for a turn 5 objective grab to win game 6. NOVA's a great time - I highly suggest it. And signing up for it is great motivation to knock out that army. I have all of two 1850+ painted armies, both of which I painted up for NOVA. gigasnail: I was on Episode 63: www.forgethenarrative.com/2014/08/ftn-episode-63-grey-knights-and-space.htmlI mostly chimed in on a couple rules debates - the main topic was Grey Knights, which are definitely the army I know the least about. Yautja: The goal isn't totally to spend points. Ymgarl might be pretty hilarious for a fun game though. With dropping the Warriors and Hive Commander for Rippers and Stealers, I'm left with 20 points, 35 if I drop OA as well. That would be enough for a 6th Ravener (I will concede the Shrikes are better, though not having Move Through Cover is a concern since they have to hug cover, and not coming with Fleet is also a minus for getting into assault). Alternatively to the Ravener/Shrikes, in a double CAD format I could go with 4x3 rippers and get a third dakkaflyrant. Short of double CAD though, think my list is looking like: 2xFlyrant: 2xTL Devourers, Electroshock Grubs Flyrant: Reaper, Adrenal Malanthrope 4x3 Rippers: Deep Strike 5 Genestealers 2xCrone 5 Raveners: 3 Rending Claws, 2 double ScyTal 2 Carnifex: Crushing Claws, Adrenal Glands
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Post by Yautja on Sept 10, 2014 13:14:42 GMT
May I ask for your opinion on Reaper over Maw-Claw? I presume vs strong characters you're after the ID? Do any of said Necrons have EW? If there were more vehicles would you have considered the considerably cheaper Maw-Claw?
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Post by blackrainbow on Sept 10, 2014 15:13:40 GMT
Nothing motivates like competition. My only regular opponent is just starting out, with Necrons, so I'll point him this way too.
I also enjoyed the list change-up. Aside from a fun looking list, having a nice variation seems like it would be fun too. I started in 3rd, and miss CC'centric Nids. The race up the board is always a blast! (just hopefully not on me)
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Post by FTGTEvan on Sept 10, 2014 17:15:57 GMT
May I ask for your opinion on Reaper over Maw-Claw? I presume vs strong characters you're after the ID? Do any of said Necrons have EW? If there were more vehicles would you have considered the considerably cheaper Maw-Claw? Honestly, he's partly designed as a Wraithknight hunter. Reaper lets him go first, have much better numbers when it comes to wounds, and fairly good odds of rolling a 6 to get ID. I had considered simply Boneswords or BS/LW with Toxin, but both of those suffer largely from the nerf to poison, and aren't all that much cheaper than the reaper (30-35 points vs 45). He's capable of taking on vehicles, but that's not his main role. Vehicle hunting goes more to the FMCs and fexes.
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Post by jaysic on Sept 10, 2014 17:42:38 GMT
I have about a dozen games with a melyrant under my belt and more than double that with CC shrikes. When I get home (6:30 eastern) I'll write up my experience/lessons learned. Don't drop OA. Reaper isn't really worth it. Go AG/LW/BS. 250 points is the sweet spot. Stick with shrouded for 2+ jink and roll on personal warlord (if he's your warlord) and hope to roll up FNP. Shrikes are NNNNAAAAAASSSTY and won't get shot due to other threats. Put LW/BS and they are your Wraith knight hunters. Edit: I also prefer the look of Ravaners, so I made them shrikes. Pics are on here too but here's a quick link; thewarmaster.com/index.php?topic=3985.0
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Post by nameless on Sept 10, 2014 18:27:23 GMT
I like your list. I'd probably go with Shrieks instead, just because I like the models better. Don't drop OA. Reaper isn't really worth it. Go AG/LW/BS. 250 points is the sweet spot. Stick with shrouded for 2+ jink and roll on personal warlord (if he's your warlord) and hope to roll up FNP. I disagree. I looked at this in last edition (should do an update) and the reaper was quite superior. Vs T6 and lower, the two set ups will be identical on the charge. After the charge, the reaper comes out ahead. If you're looking to deal with T8 (i.e. wraith knights), the reaper is 40% more likely to cause instant death either on the charge or after. Technically, you don't really need AG (aside from fleet) on a Tyrant hunting WL with BS/LW. OA changes this to be 30% (if they are both taking it) or 18% better for similar points (i.e. vs BS/LW+OA+TS). It almost all cases, the Reaper is better by more than a little bit.
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Post by nameless on Sept 10, 2014 18:44:04 GMT
I really like the AG on the CC flyrant for Fleet - don't want to miss a make-able charge due to poor dice. The +1S is a bonus (takes him to 8 on the charge). I'll admit the Old Adversary is the more borderline upgrade, but it takes him from 4 hits to 4.67 hits on the charge. With shred it will get an extra wound a bit over 50% of the time. There is an interesting thing when it comes to adding S when trying to go for instant death. The more often you wound, the less you can re-roll and the less 6s you have a chance to roll. So, vs T8: Reaper+OA vs Reaper+OA+AG26% increase in wounds with AG -11% decrease in instant death wounds with AG Reaper vs Reaper+OA+AG37% increase in wounds with AG+OA 5% increase in instant death wounds with AG+OA Reaper+AG vs Reaper+OA+AG14% increase in wounds with OA 14% increase in instant death wounds with OA The question becomes, how important is fleet? And, are you mostly planning on dealing with WK? If the primary focus is WK, then I think you're better off with just the Reaper and bank the extra 30 points. What's your experience in getting the charge with a FMC vs a fast moving unit (like a WK)? I would think that you'd tend to get charged.
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