Venomthrope "Grated Shroud"

[Xupim]

Hi everyone, I'm here because of a doubt of a friend: 

The question is simple, Spore Cloud: Its says that friendly models within 6" have the Shroud special rule.

Copying from the codex (That I got Yesterday!): "Spore Cloud: All friendly models from Codex: Tyranids that are whitin 6" of at least one Venomthrope have the Shroud special rule." - Codex: Tyranid pg 47.

Copying from the Big Rule Book: "Shroud: A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover saves as being 2 points better than normal. Note that this means a model with the Shrouded special rule always has a cover save of at least 5+, even if it's in the open.  Cover save bonuses from the Shrouded and Stealth special rules are cumulative (to a maximum of a 2+ cover save)." - Big Rule Book, pg 41.

What you say, the Special Rule granted to the model pass to the Unit?


 

[Hivefleet Oblivion]

Yes. If one model in a unit is within 6 inches of the venomthrope, all models in that unit get Shroud.

[bolk]

Feb 13, 2014 11:02:36 GMT Xupim said:

Copying from the Big Rule Book: "Shroud: A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover saves as being 2 points better than normal. Note that this means a model with the Shrouded special rule always has a cover save of at least 5+, even if it's in the open.  Cover save bonuses from the Shrouded and Stealth special rules are cumulative (to a maximum of a 2+ cover save)." - Big Rule Book, pg 41.
 

There`s your answer right there. Show that to your friend and make him weep

[mobugs]

That's why my gaunt lines look like this for advancing foot sloggers across the table. front line of gaunts get 5+ (if no other cover) everything behind them 3+

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
                 X
                 X
                 X
                 X
                 X
                MC
        Venemthrope

[coredump]

Beware of barrage killing those few gaunts near the vthrope.

And with that much distance between gaunts and MC, i would doubt any cover save.

[mobugs]

we've already been over this quite extensively in another thread core... they get the save... and if the string of gaunts happens to get hit.. you deal with it on the next movement phase if consolidation leaves the last guy outside the 6" range

[coredump]

Nope, the shots will be going over those gaunts... at that range its probably not even close. And the rule is *very* specific that the cover save doesn't apply if the shots are going over the intervening models.



You are missing the problem, the first shot is the barrage, kills 3-5 gaunts, now there is no more gaunt cover save. (and may not be any synapse coverage)
Then shots can go into gaunts.

[mobugs]

Feb 14, 2014 7:25:07 GMT coredump said:

Nope, the shots will be going over those gaunts... at that range its probably not even close. And the rule is *very* specific that the cover save doesn't apply if the shots are going over the intervening models.



You are missing the problem, the first shot is the barrage, kills 3-5 gaunts, now there is no more gaunt cover save. (and may not be any synapse coverage)
Then shots can go into gaunts.

The shots can only go "over" the intervening models if the firer or target is in an elevated position, can't happen if the bases are on the same level. The BRB is very specific about that as well.

Barrage would have to get lucky I think and the main line would still be in synapse. In any event the gaunts are doing their job and eating fire while the force behind is slogging. 

[coredump]

This why I dropped out of the other thread, people kept making up rules. Or trying to explain how the rules 'really meant' something different than what was written...


*Please* show me where the rules say the firing model has to be "in an elevated position, cant' happen if the bases are on the same level" You claim the BRB is "very specific", so it should be pretty easy....

Here is the rule as I find it:
"Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit rather than through it."
It says nothing about having to be elevated, neither explicitly nor implicitly.

Perhaps you have found a different explicit rule...

[Morollan]

Page 18:

Intervening Models
If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by models from a third unit (models not from the firer's unit, or from the target unit), it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain.

So if 25% or more of the target model is obscured by an intervening model then you get a 5+ save. So yes, you can draw LOS but that doesn't mean you can ignore intervening models completely.

[mobugs]

Feb 14, 2014 14:13:12 GMT coredump said:

This why I dropped out of the other thread, people kept making up rules. Or trying to explain how the rules 'really meant' something different than what was written...


*Please* show me where the rules say the firing model has to be "in an elevated position, cant' happen if the bases are on the same level" You claim the BRB is "very specific", so it should be pretty easy....

Here is the rule as I find it:
"Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit rather than through it."
It says nothing about having to be elevated, neither explicitly nor implicitly.

Perhaps you have found a different explicit rule...

Core.. it always comes back to the line that you choose to ignore in favor of the 25% terrain cover save line.

"If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by models from a third unit (models not from the firer's unit, or from the target unit) it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it were behind terrain." - note the emphasized text, that's not me, that's from the brb

You can't just say I'm only firing at the part of a unit that in your view is above the intervening unit in order to ignore cover saves. If that logic worked then the 25% cover save you try to apply to intervening models would never be applicable either.

Core... I respect your opinions on a lot of threads, but I don't think you and I will ever see eye to eye on the subject of cover saves.

We've derailed this thread, luckily the initial question was answered already. For anyone interested in the extremely lengthy debate over the cover save you can go back and read through it here thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/45474/clarification-on-cover-save-synapse

[nameless]

If we have to, we tend to use floss to check it. Take the floss from the head of the firing model to the bottom of the target, then move the floss up on the target model to see where it is obscured (i.e. starts going through an intervening unit. If that position is more than 25% of the height of the model, then cover from the intervening unit, if not, no. We don't usually have to get to this level very often though.

[gloomfang]

The issue that Core is talking about is different then the issue all the rest of you are talking about. The gaunts are the unit out front. I am firing a blast weapon at the gaunts. I can place the marker anywhere on the unit that I want. I place it on the models that are daisy chaining back into the shrouded/synapse bubble. The hits are now resolved on those models. (Do a search for daisy cutting as I talk a lot about it.)

Once shrouded is removed you can just wipe the gaunt screen with normal shooting or at least remove it to the point that some units get a worse cover save.

Cutting synapse is even worse as I have seen a 26 man guant squad that had their tether cut during shooting and assaulted by a small elite unit of troops in the assault phase. They take 3-4 causualtys and have to take aLD test at LD 2-3 and get destroid by the sweeping advance.

[mobugs]

that could happen.. and if the sweeping advanced takes them out, guess what my MC is now within charging distance on his turn and he the gaunts did their job of getting my foot sloggers across the board. Which is part of what core was talking about and I agree it's possible that it could happen. Or because there are so few models there it's also very possible that you don't hit or you only hit one model and after consolidating the unit they're still easily within synapse. Lot's of ifs in that scenario.

[coredump]

Mobugs, I am not ignoring that part of the sentence, I am using it. But I am also using the *entire* sentence, yet you decide to ignore the last part of the sentence as if it doesn't exist.

Likewise.... you are now ignoring the last sentence in the paragraph.

It says if the shots go over the intervening models, you *don't* get the save. So, if the shot goes 'through' you get a save, if it goes 'over' you don't. But somehow you simply ignore the last sentence.

Then you start just making rules up, like that the book "explicitly" states that the model has to be elevated.


I don't mind disagreements on the rules... but you are not disagreeing on the rules, you are just ignoring the parts you don't like, and creating new ones as you need.
You need to have your assertion use *all* of the rules, and *only* the written rules... or it isn't really a rules discussion.


Nameless and Morollan: I agree with you.