Clarification on cover save and synapse

[mobugs]

So I double checked and let me know if I'm wrong on this, but I read and re-read the cover saves page and from what I see it says.

Pg 18 in the mini BRB
"Intervening Models
If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by models from a third unit (models not from the firer's unit or from the target unit), it receives a 5+ cover save in the same was as if it was behind terrain...........Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit rather than through it."

So the rule "shocker" is ambiguous, as the MC is partially covered even over 25% covered if you're looking at them behind a line of tgaunts, but it also seems like you're firing over the units. Now if you go back to the 25% rule which only seems to apply to terrain and only requires 25% block to ONE firer in the firing unit, the the tgaunts measure 1.25" to the top of the head and the terv is 3.5" to the top of the carapace 4.5" if you go to the top of the smoke stack (though I wouldn't consider the smoke stack per pg8 LoS (head, torso, arms, legs) wings, weapons, tails, antennae don't count. I would consider the smoke stacks part of the fluff. Even if you don't the tgaunts stand over 25% of the terv. As long as there is a line of tgaunts in between the terv and the firer's the space between units is supposed to be considered filled.

at least that's how I interpret the rule.


As for synapse, I read that as only needing one model of the unit within 12" which wouldn't be a problem as they'll all have at least one unit within 6" of the venom for shroud and the terv will be back another 6".

I'd like to know if others see it differently as these mechanics effect my new list a lot.

Read more: thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/45460/trying-run-1500pt-list-sm?page=1&scrollTo=770133#ixzz2sCB8vlfZ

[coredump]

Sorry, but I'm just not sure what your actual question is.

[fleetofclaw]

I'm with core on this one...

[mobugs]

I guess I'm just asking if my interpretation of the two rules is correct. Someone on my original post said something that seemed contradictory, so I looked it up and now I'm looking for confirmation.

Sorry, I probably should have said confirmation as opposed to clarification. I'm still getting my feet under me with the rules.

[coredump]

It would help if you asked a question, or gave a specific example, instead of a paragraph wander through various rules and possibilities. At least for my old and addled brain it would help...

[ranmafan]

I think I get it.

Yes - most Tyranid MCs do get cover saves from gaunts regardless because they're just short enough to get about 25% obscured by a unit (or the space between models in a unit) unless the opponent's shooting unit is on a hill somewhere. In the 5th ed only certain bodyparts counted, but apparently in 6th ed they only mention 'target' - so more than likely the entire model is a valid target now.

And yes, Synapse does transfer along the chain if even one model from that unit is in Synapse range - you only have to have one gaunt within 12" of a Synapse creature to keep the 30 model unit from falling apart.

[Hive Fleet Ragnorok]

Agreed with above - if, from the model's perspective (the firer, that is) the target is obscured, then it gets the save... meaning gaunts will cover most of our MC's (Trygon types being the exception).

If a unit is firing from a tall enough hill or high enough in a building to not have the intervening models actually block line of sight, then you're "firing over" the unit... same as if it were a Barrage weapon, which has its own special rules in regard to cover saves.

[gigasnail]

Feb 3, 2014 1:56:34 GMT ranmafan said:

I think I get it.

Yes - most Tyranid MCs do get cover saves from gaunts regardless because they're just short enough to get about 25% obscured by a unit (or the space between models in a unit) unless the opponent's shooting unit is on a hill somewhere. In the 5th ed only certain bodyparts counted, but apparently in 6th ed they only mention 'target' - so more than likely the entire model is a valid target now.

And yes, Synapse does transfer along the chain if even one model from that unit is in Synapse range - you only have to have one gaunt within 12" of a Synapse creature to keep the 30 model unit from falling apart.

look in the BRB in the very beginning under 'drawing line of sight' pg 8. wings, weapons, tails, spikes, etc don't count.

do note that a flyer (as in a vehicle, not a FMC) the wings do count as part of the hull.

[mobugs]

So I still see people talking about the 25% rule and this leads to part of my confusion. On pg 18 where it talks about cover by intervening units it only says partially covered. The only place I see 25% rule is under cover saves from terrain.

Partially covered is a lot more ambiguous and a lot less restrictive than 25%.

[coredump]

Intervening models provide a cover save "in the same way as if it was behind terrain"

The way terrain provides a cover save is when you are 25% obscured.

[mobugs]

Feb 3, 2014 5:06:04 GMT coredump said:

   "in the same way as if it was behind terrain"

Hey Core, where did you find that? That is what I was looking for before posting this and I'm still scouring and unable to find that wording anywhere. It makes sense but I'd like to know where it's specified in the book or an faq.

Thanks

[coredump]

p/18 INtervening MOdels section.

[N.I.B.]

The common interpretation of intervening models and 25% covered MCs is that it's enough if as little as a toenail is obscured, to get a cover save. Unfortunately here in Sweden we have a 'Swe-FAQ' that many tournaments refer to. The guys behind that document decided that MCs need to be 25% obscured by the intervening unit to claim a cover save.
So, you may need to check with your TO to be sure how it's going to be ruled.

[daboarder]

However as you said N.I.B

You get a cover save if the opponent shoots through the spaces occupied buy his own models regardless.

It's pretty black and white, there are essentially 3 ways to get cover for a MC

1) be in area terrain
2) If your body is 25% obscured by ANYTHING
3) If the opponent fires through the gaps in the models of an intervening unit you get a cover save.

[ranmafan]

Feb 3, 2014 2:25:56 GMT gigasnail said:

Feb 3, 2014 1:56:34 GMT ranmafan said:

I think I get it.

Yes - most Tyranid MCs do get cover saves from gaunts regardless because they're just short enough to get about 25% obscured by a unit (or the space between models in a unit) unless the opponent's shooting unit is on a hill somewhere. In the 5th ed only certain bodyparts counted, but apparently in 6th ed they only mention 'target' - so more than likely the entire model is a valid target now.

And yes, Synapse does transfer along the chain if even one model from that unit is in Synapse range - you only have to have one gaunt within 12" of a Synapse creature to keep the 30 model unit from falling apart.

look in the BRB in the very beginning under 'drawing line of sight' pg 8. wings, weapons, tails, spikes, etc don't count.

do note that a flyer (as in a vehicle, not a FMC) the wings do count as part of the hull.

Awesome, I was trying to remember where I'd seen those but couldn't find it again.

The question for a Nid then becomes... where does the weapon end and the arm begin? Same for their wings, since these don't pop out the back like the Daemons, etc.