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Post by glassiya on Aug 10, 2013 9:04:24 GMT
So, basically scary rumurs are growing flesh and blood. Black Temlars will lose their personal codex and will be added in vanilla one. Not even as a Sup.
Really sad news for me, cause I always thought of BT as of the most unique and interesting SM army, their tactics closely resemble our own gaunt rush, and I even wanted to make them my 2nd army, despite their old and broken book.
Now I seriously doubt it. The age of Templars is ending.
What do you think, hive?
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Post by nyvyan on Aug 10, 2013 9:49:02 GMT
If that is true that would be sad.
BT's are as you say probably the most unique SM team and one of the only ones I would actually like to play.
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Post by Sensei on Aug 10, 2013 15:27:46 GMT
What exactly is so different and unique about them? I've never read their codex.....but from what I remember from a friend who used to play them a number of years ago, basically every other SM faction is more unique and differentiated than them....
Blood angels, space wolves and grey knights are all very different from my perspective. Grey knights are basically an entirely different faction, space wolves and blood angels more being variations of regular marines, but definitely unique from vanilla space marines.
I'm just not familiar with what makes Black Templar special and I'm curious.
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Post by Nightmare20 on Aug 10, 2013 16:46:53 GMT
They have a chosen badass who in lore is a different gent every battle, who refreshes their vows to kick more ass whether it be rage or a better deny the witch, they have a single modular troop choice outfitted with bolter or cc/pistol in groups of 10, with access to devastator squad level heavy weapons, an add on "squire" unit of scouts attached to the crusader squads to bring them up to 20 per squad. They were the first to use land raider crusaders, test for leadership when taking shooting casualties and run forward if they pass. Unfortunately a lot of what made templars unique has been pilfered by other codexes. They need a serious reimagining but they deserve a stand alone.
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Post by glassiya on Aug 10, 2013 17:07:23 GMT
What exactly is so different and unique about them? basically: they're the only 2nd foundation chapter, who had their own book back then; they're marines, who specialise in CC, not stand'n'shoot; and they do this with simple CCWs just because of sheer numbers of attacks, fearless in assault and other berserkerish things; they're marines, who overcome their enemy by numbers. Instead of 5+5 tacticals they use squads of 20 knights+squires in each. Basically they're orks in black power armours; they have special boosts (vows), that's similar to Wolves' sagas, but expand on your whole army, so you can specialize it in purging unclean, abhoring the psykers, withstanding lascannon fire, and just plainly breaking faces; they're the people who, when they're shot at, immediatelystart to run - but they run to the one who shot them, swinging with chainsaws and ignoring their own dead, like they're gaunts under synapce. so I'm gonna miss them. |
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Post by rpricew on Aug 10, 2013 20:56:24 GMT
Rumors are that the BTs are going to keep their flavor, even though they are getting rolled into the C:SM book. They are going to supposedly have all of their cool independence, AND have access to extra equipment that they previously didn't.
I'm going to reserve judgement until the book actually hits the shelves.
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Post by infornography on Aug 11, 2013 2:59:10 GMT
I'm withholding judgement until the dex comes out, but from what I understand, the BT are DEFINITELY being rolled into Codex:Space Marines, but every first founding chapter and them will get a special set of rules for their list.
I'm waiting to see what comes of it.
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Post by glassiya on Aug 11, 2013 3:21:30 GMT
well, imagine if next tyranids would be wrapped in some Codex: Xenos along with necrons, eldar and tau.
You can understand what templars feel right now.
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Post by gigasnail on Aug 11, 2013 4:26:20 GMT
there is honestly very little that isn't a win here. BT codex is basically unplayable as it is. now you get an updated codex, and a supplement. aside from a book full of your very own fluff, what exactly are you loosing? being wrapped into the main codex also means you'll get more than one update every 10 years or so.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2013 5:08:21 GMT
well, imagine if next tyranids would be wrapped in some Codex: Xenos along with necrons, eldar and tau. You can understand what templars feel right now. . . . Except BT are SM and Tyranids are not Necrons, Eldar or Tau . . . I'd be a bit disappointed if I were an old school BT fan but people need to be realistic. 40K already has 6 distinct power armor codices, not counting SoB, and that's leaving out plenty of well-known chapters. GW has to draw the line somewhere or we'd all be playing Space Marines 40k. I mean, really. 6 codices, tons of models, new stuff from FW constantly and people expect . . . More Space Marines. Ignoring also the fact that they will be getting their own supplement . . . I understand how some BT players are feeling, I just don't sympathize. |
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Post by tylertt on Aug 11, 2013 5:41:52 GMT
well, imagine if next tyranids would be wrapped in some Codex: Xenos along with necrons, eldar and tau. You can understand what templars feel right now. . . . Except BT are SM and Tyranids are not Necrons, Eldar or Tau . . . I'd be a bit disappointed if I were an old school BT fan but people need to be realistic. 40K already has 6 distinct power armor codices, not counting SoB, and that's leaving out plenty of well-known chapters. GW has to draw the line somewhere or we'd all be playing Space Marines 40k. I mean, really. 6 codices, tons of models, new stuff from FW constantly and people expect . . . More Space Marines. Ignoring also the fact that they will be getting their own supplement . . . I understand how some BT players are feeling, I just don't sympathize. Agreed. Plus honestly, we don't really know how big the SM codex will be. For all we know, it could turn out to be a very large compilation codex (Still not quite the same as each Chapter having their own Dex), but I mean still, at least they are acknowledging the fact that each Chapter deserves its own seperate feel and playstyle. I'm looking forward to seeing this, even though no a single person in my gaming group plays a Power Armor Army lol. |
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Post by infornography on Aug 11, 2013 5:47:13 GMT
Core difference is, Black Templar share what 90 or so percent of their codex with 4 other codecies? Getting rolled into one of those means more updates, more access to units, and probably better overall balance. They lose some fluff space, maybe the few distinctive units they had (not definite), and a possible new line of minis to come out with the new codex they will never get despite the fact that they have some really good bits sets available that most First Founding chapters wish they had.
Yeah, I can see how there would be some disappointment but not too much.
Meanwhile Tyranids share exactly 0 models with other codecies. Nada zip zilch. A Xenos codex would have to be enormous to just support the units that would be available to each race or shrink each race to less than 10 unit types each. Not to mention how rough the new releases would be.
The comparison just doesn't hold water. The first is a compromise with pros and cons, the second is just completely nonsensical with no upside at all.
Personally I think Dark Angels would have done well to be rolled into Codex: Space Marines as well.
Long story short, I think it is probably a good move on GW's part and I think it would be wise to wait and see how they handle it rather than get all bothered about it sight unseen. The biggest thing to be disappointed about is the lack of sets of minis just for them that would have come out, but since those minis would just be power armor with tabards and bolters with chains, and GW sells sets of tabards and enchained bolters, meh.
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Post by glassiya on Aug 11, 2013 10:03:02 GMT
Ignoring also the fact that they will be getting their own supplement . . . no they won't. not even that. thing is, you can put option for Salamanders in the book, adding "twinlinked flamers and meltas". you can put option for White Scars in the book, adding "outflank" or "moves bikes in Troops". but to add BT in the same way, you need to add "tacticals are 10-20 instead of 5-10, have no sergeant, have no heavy weapons, have more powerweapons, can use unique "emperor's champion", can use unique vows, are fearless, move d3 forward after getting overwatched" and so on, and so on. You just can't add all of that in one page of Helbrecht/Grimaldus. |
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Post by t⊗theark on Aug 11, 2013 10:18:45 GMT
I'm not too saddened - I'm sure there will be the mechanics to play horde, combat, landraider marines in the new codex. Hell, do we need so many imperial codecies? I WANT MORE CHAOS GODDAMMIT, GIVE ME MY TRAITOR GUARD AND NOT THE IMPERIAL KIND WITH CHAOS ALLIES!
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Post by grarik on Aug 11, 2013 10:43:57 GMT
Ignoring also the fact that they will be getting their own supplement . . . no they won't. not even that. thing is, you can put option for Salamanders in the book, adding "twinlinked flamers and meltas". you can put option for White Scars in the book, adding "outflank" or "moves bikes in Troops". but to add BT in the same way, you need to add "tacticals are 10-20 instead of 5-10, have no sergeant, have no heavy weapons, have more powerweapons, can use unique "emperor's champion", can use unique vows, are fearless, move d3 forward after getting overwatched" and so on, and so on. You just can't add all of that in one page of Helbrecht/Grimaldus. You can't say that won't get their own supplement, they're just as likely to get one as any other space marine faction. The fact they haven't announced one yet means nothing, it's been stated that the supplements are on no clear timetable, and are simply released when ready, so we could see one in november, we could see one in 2015, who knows? As for they're unique stuff, yes, they can bring something similar! Take a black templar character/choose a black templar army/however it'll work in the new codex, and it very well could unlock a unique chapter trait that does bring back the big units. Will it be the same? possibly not. Is that a bad thing? Again, possibly not. Black templar as they are now aren't great. Their rules are awkward, and in some places stupid (charge forwards when you get shot at? great way to pull a unit out of cover/off an objective). Odds are they can only be helped by this. Just an addendum, The Black Templar codex isn't the first expansion army to be rolled back into their parent army. I remember back in 3rd edition when they released Codex Armageddon, giving Black Templar, Salamander, Steel Legion guardsmen and the Kult of Speed their own unique lists. Black Templar were the only ones to be kept separate from that Codex. I also Remember the Catachan codex, disappeared too |
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