Necron relic trick, can it be done?

[robomummy]

So after watching this: www.beastsofwar.com/warhammer-40k/ultimate-necron-cheese/ I am wondering if this is really something that can happen.

for those of you who dont want to sit through the video here is a rundown of what they say necrons are allowed to do in the capture the relic mission. Necrons in a doomscythe pick up the relic, relic forces the doomscythe to move 6" which causes it to crash. Units holding the relic inside go into reseves. they claim the relic goes into reserves with the unit because of the arguement that the necrons that are holding the relic are not technically inside the vehicle the relic is also not technically inside the vehicle.

I call BS on this and say the Relic should end up where the flier crashed and all they have suceeded in doing is moving the relic 6" and crashing a flier for me but there are many who say that since the unit holding the relic enters reserves then the relic enters reserves with them. I want to know what you think. have you ever ran into this? would you let your opponents do this?

[Sensei]

I don't have my rulebook, and I'm not familiar with the rules regarding embarked units claiming relics, but don't they have to exit the vehicle and then get back in?

If that's the case, necrons wouldn't be able to because they can't reenter their vehicle due to the fact they are using some beam transport thing and are technically not in the flier.


On that note, even if embarked units can claim a relic, I would call shenanigans on a necron player that tried to pull this and use their argument against them because regardless of whether or not embarked units can claim a relic, I'm fairly certain a vehicle cannot.

The unit is not in the vehicle therefore the relic is not in the vehicle when it crashes = The unit is not in the vehicle and therefore cannot claim the relic when the vehicle is next to it.

Aside from that, if embarked units are able to claim a relic, it's a pretty safe assumption that in order to do this a model has to be able to get in and out of the vehicle to grab the relic. Necrons are unable to embark once they have exited and so there is no way a unit "in" a doomscythe is able to claim one.

[Geneva]

If a unit is "removed as a casualty" would it take the relic with them?

As soon as a unit leaves the board it drops the relic. A unit in a transport is still 'on the board' but that's about all the leeway you can get with that. The relic is strictly an objective and objectives cannot be placed in reserve, removed as a casualty or otherwise because the objective is not actually the unit in question.

[coredump]

They got the rules messed up, but it looks like it can be done. I don't think it was intended, and seems to go against the spirit of the mission, but I think it is legal.

OTOH, if you let a cron player pull this off, you were probably going to lose anyway.
The flyer can't come on until turn 2, then drop off in the middle of the field, where your entire army is heading. then has to survive a turn of shooting and not get stuck in assault.

[infornography]

oooh, that is tricky, I will have to spend some time with the books in question when I get home this morning to figure it out.

I thought necrons COULD board a night scythe though, and while it is zooming too.

either way, even if the rules allow it, I would call shenanigans and either we would not play it that way, or I would just not play that player anymore.

[halos]

I believe Necrons can now re-board their fliers after disembarking.

It's in the FAQ after the initial FAQ required to let them get out in the first place...

But either way a unit in a transport cannot claim the Relic (only Scoring models can, which a vehicle is not regardless of what's embarked in it.)
So this 'tactic' involves:
a) Bringing the scythe on (Turn 2 at the earliest.)
b) Disembarking the unit inside and grabbing the relic.
c) Next turn getting back into the Scythe and doing the whole crash and burn act.

By turn two you should be easily able of getting hold of the relic with gants or, failing that, surrounding it with non-scoring units so the 'crons can't get close.
And even if the 'crons do manage to grab the relic you have a turn in which all you need to do is get them in combat with something that won't lost in a single turn (and as the only scoring 'cron units are Warriors and Immortals that shouldn't prove too tricky.) This stops them getting back in the scythe which is then forced to fly 18" minimum, far, far away from the Relic holding squad.

[Lanesend]

If the unit of warriors is forced into reserves, is there a rule allowing them to take the relic with them? I can see it just as easily that they have to drop the relic.

[infornography]

Well I can't find anything that would make it illegal aside from being a decent human being and not a total douchewad.

You can embark on a transport with the relic, the nightscythe counts as a transport per the 6th ed rulebook. And the teleporter specifically calls what you are doing embarking. The rules for the relic explicitly allow you to board a flyer and state that it will crash as a result (which somehow does not damage the fragile relic that can't be moved more than 6" in a turn). And no rule forces the model to drop the relic after the crash.

The one thing I can find that is debatable is the rule that says it cannot be moved more then 6" in a turn. You can argue that entering reserves is more than 6" and that because it is being forced to move more than 6" into reserves that it is automatically dropped. This makes a major assumption that reserves (which is an unquantifiable distance away) is more than 6" away. This reasoning could have unforeseen conflicts with other rules and be argued for days I'm sure. But at least it gives an out for a reasonable player looking for a reason why they should not do this other than common decency.

[maugrim]

It is illegal because REGARDLESS about what the Fluff says about "not being on the flyer" - there is *nothing* in the rules which states this. So you board the flyer - it crashes - your models inside take the Str 10 AP 1 hits - IF the model holding it survives, it leaves the board into reserves, thus dropping the Relic.

As far as the rules go - the Necrons are Embarked in their Transport Vehicle, and must follow all the rules pertaining to that. Which includes taking the hits when you shoot the flyer down. Their "special rule" about reverting to regular Reserves only takes effect when they have to disembark from the wrecked vehicle, which occurs after they take the damage from it crashing.

All these arguments about "not being inside" are attempting to use FLUFF text to justify gaining advantages in the game. If anybody allows this, heck - we can go whole hog on the Cruddy stuff that was written in our Fluff which isn't replicated in the actual rules... And shudder about the Ward fluff attached to his units...

[infornography]

Huh, you seem to be correct about them taking the hit. And all Necron troops would die instantly to such a hit.

Problem solved. There is no rule in the necron codex that says that the passengers are immune to the hit. It says that they do not disembark, but that hit happens while they are "within" the flyer. They are not put into reserves until they try to disembark, which is after they would take the St10 no armor save hit.

maugrim is right. Problem solved.

[nurglitch]

The evidence seems to favour maugrim's opinion. The Necron FAQ v1.1 treats units disembarking from the Night Scythe as embarked on it.

[Sensei]

Sorry, didn't mean to use fluff to get an advantage. I haven't read their rules for a while, and haven't even read the FAQ at all (I don't play with them, or against them). I just remember reading something about the necron transport not actually having the units in the vehicle - can't remember if it was the fluff or a rule.

Other than that, I agree with what Genevaman said - it's an objective and is unable to leave the board. If the necron holding the relic leaves the board, the relic would be dropped.

[t⊗theark]

The relic isn't the unit, it's in the wreckage

[maugrim]

Sorry if I seem somewhat... pointed, but this "argument" ticks me off - even though I play Necrons as well. It is a blatant attempt to use the Fluff to get an advantage in the game by avoiding the pain that other Flying Transports contents take when their rides are destroyed. And while other attempts to do so are usually instantly shot down as ludicrous, this one seems to be getting some traction.

[robomummy]

Dec 21, 2012 2:07:00 GMT maugrim said:

Sorry if I seem somewhat... pointed, but this "argument" ticks me off - even though I play Necrons as well. It is a blatant attempt to use the Fluff to get an advantage in the game by avoiding the pain that other Flying Transports contents take when their rides are destroyed. And while other attempts to do so are usually instantly shot down as ludicrous, this one seems to be getting some traction.

exactly my point, it is being treated as a legitimate tactic when in reality it is just a cheap way to bend the rules.