Best characters for Unending Swarm?

[killercroc]

Reading through the different detachments for the Nids I am really looking at Unending Swarm to be the main thing I run, it's very thematic for an unending tide of Chitin just running forward each turn to just slam into the opponent (and camp on objectives). Main issue I am running into, is what Characters to run in the army for the best use. There aren't many characters that can join the swarms, unless I missed something it's the Winged Prime for Gargoyles and Neurotyrant for Neurogants. A few on the enhancements are nice but they seem like you can't get them on the units you want, the -1 on crit wounds is nice and would be great on Hormagaunts, but they don't have a character to join them. I don't have a army size in mind, but somewhere between 1000-2000 points as that's what most people tend to like to play.

Main thoughts tend to be:

Neurotyrant and a squad of Neurogants to make sure everything stays within synapse range to keep them from getting Battle shocked and keep stratagems working.

Tervigon to boost Termigants and keep models in units. If the opponent doesn't put in enough firepower to drop a squad of 20 in one turn, replacing a few so they can still do something would be nice.

Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord for either extra CP or using a strat free each turn. My only issue with these guys is they're so expensive, and everyone brings so many heavy weapons I would want the Guard to go with them just so they don't die in one turn, so a very expensive unit. (Also because LoS blocking terrain isn't acceptable on the tables because everyone just wants to play gunlines, and if they cannot see all of your deployment zone from theirs the terrain is unfair) ((But of course if I do nothing but bring artillery bugs that's unfair too))

If there are any other characters that work great in swarms or in certain circumstances I would love to hear it.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

I ran a winged prime in a ranged warrior unit at 1k. I will note that I must have been doing something wrong as I lost 4 out of 5 of the games I played, mostly due to losing on primary.

The downside to the neurotyrant in neurogaunts is how mixed toughness works. Toughness is applied from the body guard unit at time of targeting. So if you have one neurogaunt left and the neurotyrant, you'll be at T3 for the whole attack sequence even though the tyrant is T8.

[dkng]

Never attach a Neurotyrant to Neurogaunts. Not even once.
If you want Synapse coverage it is better to run Neurogaunts in front of the Neurotyrant and use a Neuroloid on them. Neurotyrant is a good choice in every detachment.

Tervigon is bad as she has no firepower, lame melee and the Lethal Hits are not worth her points. Big brick of „point all your lascannons at me”. Hard pass unless you want to go thematic and with fluff.

Swarmlord seems nice but is severely overpriced. Again - for fluff (and CPs) go for it but he doesn’t show up in competitive lists for a reason.

So we are left with default choices that basically work in every other detachment - Deathleaper for utility, Neurotyrant for SitW and Walkrant for free strats and Assault aura.

Here’s a list that went 3rd at LVO:

CHARACTERS

Deathleaper (70 points)
• 1x Lictor claws and talons

Hive Tyrant (235 points)
• 1x Heavy venom cannon
1x Monstrous bonesword and lash whip

Neurotyrant (105 points)
• Warlord
• 1x Neurotyrant claws and lashes
1x Psychic scream


BATTLELINE

Gargoyles (150 points)
• 20x Gargoyle
• 20x Blinding venom
20x Fleshborer

Hormagaunts (130 points)
• 20x Hormagaunt
• 20x Hormagaunt talons

Termagants (120 points)
• 20x Termagant
• 20x Chitinous claws and teeth
2x Strangleweb
18x Termagant spinefists

Termagants (120 points)
• 20x Termagant
• 20x Chitinous claws and teeth
2x Strangleweb
18x Termagant spinefists

Termagants (120 points)
• 20x Termagant
• 20x Chitinous claws and teeth
2x Strangleweb
18x Termagant spinefists

Termagants (120 points)
• 20x Termagant
• 20x Chitinous claws and teeth
2x Strangleweb
18x Termagant spinefistsOTHER DATASHEETS

Biovores (75 points)
• 1x Chitin-barbed limbs
1x Spore Mine launcher

Exocrine (135 points)
• 1x Bio-plasmic cannon
1x Powerful limbs

Exocrine (135 points)
• 1x Bio-plasmic cannon
1x Powerful limbs

Exocrine (135 points)
• 1x Bio-plasmic cannon
1x Powerful limbs

Lictor (60 points)
• 1x Lictor claws and talons

Neurogaunts (90 points)
• 2x Neurogaunt Nodebeast
• 2x Chitinous claws and teeth
• 20x Neurogaunt
• 20x Chitinous claws and teeth

Neurolictor (65 points)
• 1x Piercing claws and talons

Neurolictor (65 points)
• 1x Piercing claws and talons

Venomthropes (70 points)
• 3x Venomthrope
• 3x Toxic lashes

Note this was before the balance dataslate so the points are a tad off.

[killercroc]

Feb 20, 2024 19:54:05 GMT hivefleetkerrigan said:

I ran a winged prime in a ranged warrior unit at 1k. I will note that I must have been doing something wrong as I lost 4 out of 5 of the games I played, mostly due to losing on primary.

The downside to the neurotyrant in neurogaunts is how mixed toughness works. Toughness is applied from the body guard unit at time of targeting. So if you have one neurogaunt left and the neurotyrant, you'll be at T3 for the whole attack sequence even though the tyrant is T8.

If we could take warriors in units of 9 instead of just up to 6 I think the prime might be a better fit, just more bodies to give the buff to. Every time I look at it I just don't want to run it because 12" move character in a unit with 6" is such a waste, if there was a walk/wing version like the Tyrant that would be much better! I mean, good thing we even have a walking Prime model GW didn't sweep under the rug... right?

Yeah that was my main thought about that, mixed T3/8 with the unit. Issue is, if the unit is T3 they get shreded by light weapons, if the Tyrant is alone he gets blasted by heavy weapons. Too tall to hid behind a lot of terrain as well. Did think about giving him Tyrant guard, that way is +1 to hit/ to wound gets put on a unit with much better stats.

Feb 20, 2024 19:59:50 GMT dkng said:

Never attach a Neurotyrant to Neurogaunts. Not even once.
If you want Synapse coverage it is better to run Neurogaunts in front of the Neurotyrant and use a Neuroloid on them. Neurotyrant is a good choice in every detachment.

Tervigon is bad as she has no firepower, lame melee and the Lethal Hits are not worth her points. Big brick of „point all your lascannons at me”. Hard pass unless you want to go thematic and with fluff.

Swarmlord seems nice but is severely overpriced. Again - for fluff (and CPs) go for it but he doesn’t show up in competitive lists for a reason.

So we are left with default choices that basically work in every other detachment - Deathleaper for utility, Neurotyrant for SitW and Walkrant for free strats and Assault aura.

Here’s a list that went 3rd at LVO:

Neurotyrant + Neurogaunts, not even once. They said the same thing about drugs and look at me now, being on drugs the rest of my life! (The RX kind not the fun kind)

That's actually a pretty good play, run the Neurogaunts close to get the Synapse buff just not together, may try that out.

Yeah Tervigon firepower is fairly low, and combat is OK. Lethal hits is good i f you can roll the 6's, my last game I probably rolled less than 10 lethal hits all game long, My opponent rolled 6 6's in a roll of 10 dice... and rolled a lot of 6's all game long too... was highly suspicious. Thoughts are replace gaunts each turn or take Tervigons worth of points in gaunts. I mathed it out and the Tervigon need to spawn max Termigants each turn for 5 turns to equal itself. It's an either or, and like you said it's just a Lascannon magnet.

I saw that list and it for sure looks interesting, also just like a standard "Tyranid" list, lots of grubblies backed by artillery bugs, tyrant and special units doing their thing. It does look fun and I read the article that list came from, gave me quite a bit to think about on how to play the detachment.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Note on the prime being 12" movement: you can use this to game charges and probably other things as well. Each model moves it's movement characteristic. If you need to keep your opponent a bit further away, you can move the prime from the front to the back. If you need to make your charge easier, you can move it to the front due to it's larger move.

[purplebowtie]

I have yet to try this detachment myself, but I understand that indeed a walkrant (all three battle tactic stratagems seem nice, and you can save cp for resurrecting units) and a neurotyrant and deathleaper are nice (as they are in most lists).

I have had mixed results with tyrant guard and neurotyrant - they become a big fire magnet, but can actually take some pumishment and they have worked well distractring my opponents. On the flip side they mostly end up dead by t3.

Winged prime seems to me such a missed opportunity - I am confused as to why he can't join hormagaunts as well. It would seem obvious to join a fast, melee-only character into a fast, melee-only unit. It would also give a way to use many of the enhancements on hormagaunts.

I think that a Winged prime with the +2" movement enhancement and melee warriors could work with unending swarm as well, but if you are playing on an open board they may be too vulnerable to shooting.

[killercroc]

Feb 21, 2024 0:25:42 GMT hivefleetkerrigan said:

Note on the prime being 12" movement: you can use this to game charges and probably other things as well. Each model moves it's movement characteristic. If you need to keep your opponent a bit further away, you can move the prime from the front to the back. If you need to make your charge easier, you can move it to the front due to it's larger move.

Oh hey that's a pretty good point there, use him to shrink or grow a unit spahe to make charges easier or more difficult.

Feb 21, 2024 8:16:24 GMT purplebowtie said:

I have yet to try this detachment myself, but I understand that indeed a walkrant (all three battle tactic stratagems seem nice, and you can save cp for resurrecting units) and a neurotyrant and deathleaper are nice (as they are in most lists).

I have had mixed results with tyrant guard and neurotyrant - they become a big fire magnet, but can actually take some pumishment and they have worked well distractring my opponents. On the flip side they mostly end up dead by t3.

Winged prime seems to me such a missed opportunity - I am confused as to why he can't join hormagaunts as well. It would seem obvious to join a fast, melee-only character into a fast, melee-only unit. It would also give a way to use many of the enhancements on hormagaunts.

I think that a Winged prime with the +2" movement enhancement and melee warriors could work with unending swarm as well, but if you are playing on an open board they may be too vulnerable to shooting.

As for the Neurotyrant and guard, it seems like a fairly good idea! He gives them +1 to hit and if the unit is Battleshocked it's +1 to wound, way better on Tyrant guard than a group of Neurogaunts, Plus depending on the detachment you might be able to give him a nice buff for the unit too. Could try running them in an army where everything is a high priority target. Two schools of thought I look at for lists, make everything a massive threat so no matter what they shoot at they picked the wrong target, or swarm the bored with a lot of low target options that don't matter if they die or not cause you still have more in reserves.

I thought about winged prime with the +2" and melee warriors too, could be fairly nice speedy melee unit. Just have to have other big targets in your list or else your opponent just targets the warriors with all their heavy weapons and they don't last long at all.

[creatureboi]

Thematically I really like tervigons in an unending swarm list because they’re just about the only thing which synergises properly with termagants and actually with the lethal hits buff they can become quite strong. The problem is they’re too big, not tough enough and have no real defence. If only GW had kept some sort of “look out sir” protection for them when within a certain distance of a termagant squad. As it is they will just be a magnet for all the big guns your opponent has brought.

This is the problem that I have found with the unending swarm. You don’t have that many monsters so the ones you do take are all the more vulnerable. I generally think with both tanks and monsters that you have to go big or go home. Either take ALL the monsters or none at all. If you only have one or two then you make target priority easy for your opponent. It’s far better to give your opponent tough choices to make where none of his options are good. If you have no monsters for him to shoot then those lascannons are a complete waste.

In a fun friendly game I’d be tempted to take two tervigons just the laughs. If you’re playing at all competitively then leave them at home. The better option is a cheap neurotyrant simply because you’ve got to take a character to be warlord and then keep him hidden as long as possible.

With the neurogaunts, don’t forget they they don’t actually have to be that close to the neurotyrant as you can choose them as the target of his neurocyte abilities if they’re within 18” and they count as being within 6” so still get to pass on synapse themselves. That does end at the start of your next command phase though so if you’ve run them out of range to put the buff back on them again at the start of your next turn they won’t get synapse for your next round of battleshock tests.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Tervigon should have gotten the same treatment as Bobby G and the lion: lone operative if it's within 3" of terms

[killercroc]

So I've played a few more games and found Endless Swarm is what I want to run and fun for the bugs, its not very effective in the current edition of 40k. Well not that its not effective more so it's reliant completely on the mission and cards drawn. Some games I have an easy time getting points, other times not so much, not to mention the whole not being able to do damage at all during the game... that part was never very fun.

I liked the idea of the Tervigon but I came to the same conclusion there, if I only have the One Tervigon and nothing else it's getting focused by all the heavy weapons, so it'll die fast. Not to mention there is still the whole: "Can get 30 gaunts for the same points" I mean the lethals are nice but not a whole lot to rely on to hope to get some damage output. I may still try the Tervigon at one point just not overly optimistic about its potential. Most characters just don't seem to mesh in the army all that great sadly, it's not like there are no options I just don't see as much synergy as in what other armies get.

Neurogaunts with a Neurocyte is a good idea, use them purely for synapse and nothing else. Do find the issue of not having a lot of Synapse, use to take Warrior broods for that but now they're iffy. They're good against T3/4 low Sv 1w units but not much else, and they're so expensive for how little damage output they get. Instead of the 140 pts. for the warriors may do 90 for the neuros, saves 50 points and is a much larger synapse footprint at least!

Tervigons getting lone operative next to their broods would make tthem a much better prospect I think, gives them survivability and can move up the board and do things for a few turns before just getting blasted!

[hivefleetkerrigan]

For endless swarm, run one biovore + a ripper and do fixed objectives if your opponent cannot screen their whole deployment zone. Run behind enemy lines and deploy teleport homers. You're almost guaranteed to get 38 points on secondaries.

I honestly was not enjoying endless swarm due to the lack of killing so I swapped to vanguard invasion.

[killercroc]

Mar 18, 2024 14:41:39 GMT hivefleetkerrigan said:

For endless swarm, run one biovore + a ripper and do fixed objectives if your opponent cannot screen their whole deployment zone. Run behind enemy lines and deploy teleport homers. You're almost guaranteed to get 38 points on secondaries.

I honestly was not enjoying endless swarm due to the lack of killing so I swapped to vanguard invasion.

May try that. I've switched to including 2 units of 1 Ripper just for table corners. Works with fixed but if your opponent wants to do tactical are at a disadvantage.

Vanguard looked fun but I need to build a few more Lictors for that one to work. I lose my old metal ones somewhere and got the Finecast ones just never got around to building them. May do now. I've been playing Synaptic Nexus and found it to be a lot more fun, will be running Crusher for a narrative campaign we have going on!

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Nexus looks fun but hard to build around. Seems like you need synapse to support melee. Thoughts? What are you running for your list?

[killercroc]

So I've only had two games with it so far but I'm really enjoying it. One game against Salamanders and another against Orks. Marine game was basically a Turkey shoot, terrain favored me more and he had a lot of units on the ground. Ork game was way closer, back and forth every phase.

List I've ran for 1,500 pt games.

Leader:
Neurotyrant w/ Power of the Hive Mind

Battleline:
Termigants- 20x
18x- Fleshborer
2x- Strangleweb

Termigants- 10x- Devourer

Termigants- 10x- Spinefists

Hormigants- 20x- Scythes

Other:
Warriors w/ Ranged- 6x
4x- Scythes, Deathspitters
2x- Scythes, Barbed strangler

Tyrant guard- 3x- Bonecleavers

Rippers- 1x

Rippers- 1x

Venomthropes- 3x

Zoanthropes- 6x

Exocrine

Exocrine

Maleceptor

The part I don't really like about Nexus is the detachment ability, you only get 3 of them 1 per turn in a 5 turn game with really sucks, but the plus side is they're all pretty darn good. I pretty much always use Synaptic Augmentation, Surging Vitality then Goaded to Slaughter in order turns 1-3. Surging is the only one I'm iffy about, so many armies these days come out the deployment zone to fight I'm finding T2 combat is so easy to get that I don't really need the extra speed, however the advance is great on the Termigants to make it easier to get on those objectives. But a 5+ invuln army wide and a +1 to hit is pretty darn good. As for the Strats Synaptic channeling is never used, Reinforced hive node is only good on 2+/4++ units hit by AP -1/-2 weapons and nothing else cause everything usually has an Invuln save. Irresistible will is amazing and try to use it every turn if possible, Smothering Shadow is great as well with the Neurotyrant increasing chance for failed BS, looking to add the Neurolictor to force more. Override Instincts and Imperative Dominance are situational but can be very handy tools.

So far I have the Maleceptor on one flank and the Neurotyrant w/ Guard on the other, they both get gaunts depending on where the objectives are and what the terrain looks like. Most everything else I set up in the middle, with the right deployment zone I can have the Venomthropes covering my army easily so T1 getting -1 to hit, Cover & a 5++ really helps to mitigate damage if you lose the Initiative. Zoanthropes in the middle cause they can easily drift to any side of the board to add their firepower, Exos in the back just shooting away each turn, really good for holding the home objective. Warriors sort of go where ever I need to plug Synapse holes. It might looks like very few Synpase units but because of the Neurocytes and how close units stay together in the force it's not a major issue. I try to focus down the biggest scary units as soon as possible, between the Male, Zoans & Exos that's very doable. Neurotyrant is great at clearing infantry and elites from his side of the board, Gaunts add their firepower where they can (I don't rely on it at all) And Rippers drop the back 2 corners for objectives that need you in the table corners and opposite deployment zone to trigger.

It's probably not the most optimized list but so far it has been working, I've picked up another Neurotyrant and more Zoans to buff up the Psykics. I would add another Male but honestly it's very expensive for the list, but in combination with shooting, melee and the aura it's very useful. Against Marines he wiped out a squad of Infernus marines, did 5 Mortals on a flyer thanks to Smothering shadow, and took out Vulkan and an Apothecary too. Against the Ork player he took out a Scrapjet, Battlewagon, 5 Lootas with Smothering shadow and bullied a unit of 20 Orks off an objective. He's an absolute brute if played properly.