Hive guard and genestealers in 10th

[mattblowers]

Hiveguard. They make me cry. I’ve loved the model since forever. I ran a list of 18 going back as far as 7th. To be cheeky I ran them with toxin sacs so they were deceptively good in CQC. It never did that great back then but it was a hoot. I’m just sad that they are so bad now. Low strength, bad AP, and damage 1. Everything is cyclical. I’ve only updated 9 of them so I printed 9 more bases this week to finish the rest.

Genestealers. They make me sad. I really wish they were D2. Damage 1 just leaves them in a negative exchange with marines. I think they should be able to house marines in combat. They seem to always be OP or trash. Now thanks to the new kit I have 120ish off the buggers and you can run 30 at most. At least make them battle line and OC2. I just don’t see anything they do that another unit doesn’t do better.

I’ve played long enough to watch the pendulum swing. I’ma collector and hobbyist above all. But a close third is I like to piss and moan about the injustice of it all.

[nbmraptor]

Would also like genestealers to be a bit more effective. Currently putting together a themed vangaurd army of stealers, lictors, leapers, etc. All sneaky things. Mainly just because I love the models and lore.

I know it might not be optimal, b
ut I realised a while ago that I'd rather build an army that I love the idea of look of then worry about it's rules. And if it ends up being an NPC army that my friends can enjoy shooting to pieces, then at least we can have fun together

[niiai]

Hopefully the points will come down on both of them as 10th edition progresses.

[trashcan01]

Sept 30, 2023 2:04:28 GMT mattblowers said:

(...)
Genestealers. They make me sad. I really wish they were D2. Damage 1 just leaves them in a negative exchange with marines. I think they should be able to house marines in combat. They seem to always be OP or trash. (...)

Negative with the Marines? How so? You mean just in melee?
Doesn't, on average, 1 Genestealer kills 1 Tactical Marine? While it takes 2 Marines to kill one Genestealer? 

[broyston]

Sept 30, 2023 8:42:06 GMT niiai said:

Hopefully the points will come down on both of them as 10th edition progresses.

I am not sure a points drop on the Hive Guard would work, the Implaler Cannon profile is so bad in particular, to take it it would have to drop to 25 points a model or something, which you couldn't do with that main profile (good T, W Sv etc).   It seems to be paying a price for previous editions and having the indirect fire keyword.  The impaler cannon needs to be AP -2 and D2 and then it might be decent.  Right now it doesn't impale anything, just gently prod them.......

[dkng]

Sept 30, 2023 11:36:17 GMT broyston said:

Sept 30, 2023 8:42:06 GMT niiai said:

Hopefully the points will come down on both of them as 10th edition progresses.

I am not sure a points drop on the Hive Guard would work, the Implaler Cannon profile is so bad in particular, to take it it would have to drop to 25 points a model or something, which you couldn't do with that main profile (good T, W Sv etc).   It seems to be paying a price for previous editions and having the indirect fire keyword.  The impaler cannon needs to be AP -2 and D2 and then it might be decent.  Right now it doesn't impale anything, just gently prod them.......

Shockcannon isn’t cutting it neither. It either needs higher volume or AP-3. AP-1 on a 2-shot anti-vehicle gun is a bad joke.

[mattblowers]

Sept 30, 2023 10:36:09 GMT trashcan01 said:

Sept 30, 2023 2:04:28 GMT mattblowers said:

(...)
Genestealers. They make me sad. I really wish they were D2. Damage 1 just leaves them in a negative exchange with marines. I think they should be able to house marines in combat. They seem to always be OP or trash. (...)

Negative with the Marines? How so? You mean just in melee?
Doesn't, on average, 1 Genestealer kills 1 Tactical Marine? While it takes 2 Marines to kill one Genestealer? 

You have to get there first. In fairness I was probably being a bit hyperbolic, it is a rant after all. Intercessors offer quite a bit more than genestealers for the same cost.

[yoritomo]

Genestealers really should be damage 3. In every game GW makes that isn’t 40K stealers KO terminators regularly. They really should be the elite killing machines that marines fear.

[omnivore]

I mean I’d even take AP -3

[dkng]

Just make Genestealers cost 10 ppm and the Broodlord 70-80 and they will be fine.

[niiai]

There is a price point where the hive Guard shooting becomes descent anti infanteri. Even with this AP. Their range and rate of fire is good. The overwatch on 4+ assuming you can see the enemy is also good. Combine with pyrovore for better ap.

However, 110 points is not that. And damage 1 means their purpose has changed. Mind you even if they retained their S8 it is not good enough in this meta.

[mattblowers]

Sept 30, 2023 23:11:40 GMT niiai said:

However, 110 points is not that. And damage 1 means their purpose has changed. Mind you even if they retained their S8 it is not good enough in this meta.

True. Kinda proves the point though. If the strength was still the same they still wouldn't be great. As it is, they are pretty close to trash.

[mattblowers]

Sept 30, 2023 16:16:52 GMT yoritomo said:

Genestealers really should be damage 3. In every game GW makes that isn’t 40K stealers KO terminators regularly. They really should be the elite killing machines that marines fear.

LOL. Damage 3? I would play them all the time. That makes them better than a Tyrant in CQC. 40 damage 3 attacks. Oof.

[yoritomo]

Oct 1, 2023 1:51:38 GMT mattblowers said:

Sept 30, 2023 16:16:52 GMT yoritomo said:

Genestealers really should be damage 3. In every game GW makes that isn’t 40K stealers KO terminators regularly. They really should be the elite killing machines that marines fear.

LOL. Damage 3? I would play them all the time. That makes them better than a Tyrant in CQC. 40 damage 3 attacks. Oof.

Just remember Matt; it doesn’t matter how many wounds they can do, you still need to get them into combat.

In all seriousness, if stealer did 3 damage (and were priced accordingly) it would separate them from hormagaunts. Instead of being a more expensive hormagaunt, stealers would fill a different battlefield role and add some more diversity to the codex.

[piersonsmuppet]

I think just setting them to 2D would be fine, 3D would get a little crazy with a BL attached. We lost our 2D infantry blenders with Warriors dropping to only 1D in damage, so now Wars & GS directly compete.