How would you adjust points costs?

[gman25639]

So question for y'all, we have a fair number of units that are flagrantly overcosted for what they do. Since rules adjustments seem to he largely out of the question, what do you think would be a reasonable points cost for our currently overcosted units?

For me I think:

Screamer Killer, being a slightly beefier melee Carnifex, should be costed as such, and the Carnifex itself should probably be a bit cheaper so I'd make the Fex 110 and SK 120 (since the Haruspex is also 120 and fills the same role as the Screamer Killer and is actually usable).

Norns need to be MUCH cheaper, 285 and 305 are far too expensive, since they're both ultimately tougher Hive Tyrants with some new toys, I'd say make them both 240 points.

Hive Guard, cut these things price in half nobody uses them.

Tyrannofex, 200 points was fine he was never broken and just got a rules nerf no need for a 45 point increase.

Don't know about the rest what do y'all think?

[gauntlet]

Based on the durability against a lasgun, the minimum cost without additional abilities

Termagants T3 W1 Sv5+ , 6.5pts
Primaris Marines T4 W2 Sv3+, 45pts
Tyranid Warrior T5 W3 Sv4+, 45pts
Biovores T6 W4 Sv4+, 120pts
A monster T10 W10 Sv3+, 600pts

How many lasgun shots to kill a gaunt = 6 shots
0.5 to hit, 0.5 to wound, 0.66 to penetrate

How many lasgun shots to kill a Biovore = 96 shots
0.5 to hit, 0.17 to wound, 0.5 to penetrate, need 4W

Sanity check. So a Biovore should cost 16 time more than a gaunt. Check passed.

What model can a lascannon kill with one shot with the same efficiency as a lasgun?
T23 W4 Sv4+
The durability cost of such a model is 150pts
That's a minimum how much lascannon weargear should cost.

GW massively under costs high toughness multi-wound models by a factor of at least x5. To try balance this agregious lack of mathematical rationale, they use expertise (which they lack) and guesswork and give away lascannons at a token cost, rationing them by limiting them to specific models rather than through points cost.

Unfortunately, some armies don't get their fare share of lascannon models.

[dkng]

I’d say most increases were too harsh.
Tyrants were nerfed with the stratagem Core rule change. Their points should remain the same.
Swarmlord wasn't used competitively, it’s ability also got a bit worse by the Core rules change. Points should stay the same.
Tyrranofex - was nerfed, is our only long range anti-tank option. Points should stay the same. If the Spray is an issue then the gun itself should cost more but that isn’t possible as making wargear cost points was too complicated for some dimwits.
Maleceptor - strong, versatile tank. Points increase was fair. Wouldn’t mind if it went up a tad more. Still very good.
Exocrine - criminally undercosted. I’m super happy it didn’t go up.
Haruspex - despite everyone saying it’s undercosted it doesn't see use in competitive lists. Slow, clumsy and sorely lacking in AP. Points are fair for this one.
Genestealers and Broodlord were overcosted. Decrease seems fair.
Hormagaunts weren’t used competitvely and they are being promoted for the Swarm detachment. Deceease seems fair.
Toxicrene - we dont need it
Zoanthropes - the hike hurts but it kinda seems fair. It does not seem fair coupled with Tfex increase as it again weakens our anti-tank capabilities.
Biovore - damn… I would keep them at max 45, perhaps even less, keeping the rule that only one can spawn mines AND mines can't score any secondaries.
Screamer - should cost the same as other Carnifexes to be even remotely useable. 120-140 range is where Carnifexes should stay.
I have no clue about Harpy. With those guns it worth like 50 points.
Barbgaunts - the increase seems fair.
Raveners and VRLs are too expensive to be a thing. Especially Raveners after the nerf.

[Iryan]

Taking the points in the MFM 1.3 and the stats from the codex as the baseline, the noteworthy differences I would make are reverting the unnecessary nerfs, i.e. most of them:

Tyrannofex: Back to 200
Swarmlord: Back to 250
Hive Tyrant: Back to 220
Winged Tyrant: Back to 190
Then,


Zoanthropes: 110 -> 100
Hive Guard: 110 ->  90
Biovores: 75 ->  50 (and ADD THE DAMN NO-SCORE RULE TO MINES, JFC)
Melee Warriors: 85 ->  70

Haruspex: 125 -> 145
Carnifex: 125 -> 120
Screamer: 170 -> 140
Toxicrene: 180 -> 160

Harpy: 210 -> 170 (see above)
Sporocyst: 145 -> 100 (s.a.)
Spore Mines: 55 ->  30 (s.a.)
Mucolid Spore: 50 ->  20 (s.a.)



I mean, there are a few rules changes I would still make, obviously. Most important one being that spore mines cannot ever score points for either player. I know you said no changes to datasheets, but that one is non-negotiable.

Sept 10, 2023 16:20:26 GMT gauntlet said:

Based on the durability against a lasgun, the minimum cost without additional abilities 

All of that is still wrong.

[trashcan01]

Exocrine/Haruspex kit being untouched and undercosted makes me think that in the next edition they will be garbage. They're that good at the moment.

[piersonsmuppet]

SL/Tyrant: Not super happy with the pt increase, but probably the right move. I'm not happy they got a pts increase and the Stratagem nerf but at the same time the TL on the S9 AP-2 D3 was really good for their cost. They have increased importance in some of the Codex Detachments, so I think the 20-pt increase was probably fine for GW to get ahead of the curve.

Tyrannofex: pt increase was reasonable imo. Yes it got the damage reduction nerf, but Rupturefexes would be spammed in Nexus detachments at 200 pts.

Zoans: pt increase was reasonable.

Melee Warriors: I would've like to see these come down to 75-80 pts.

Toxicrene: How is this over 150 pts???

Harpy: Nowhere near enough to convince me to run one. I'd need a drop to ~170 pts before I really start looking at it (maybe ~180-200 in Vanguard).

Biovores: These are getting jerked around because of the Spore Mine scoring. Prevent mines from scoring and put these gents back at 50 pts.

Exocrine/Haruspex: These are fine, I don't really think they are as under costed as most do. Especially for the Exo, this thing can barely scratch the preferred target thanks to TEQ being W5, ease of cover, and AoC (shooting at tanks is usually hilariously disappointing as well thanks to D6+3 shots).

Carnifex/Screamer: Mostly fine, I think I'd have to see if there is a detachment they perform better in that Invasion Fleet. If not, maybe -10pts each.

Hive Guard: Over-costed before the Overwatch and Tyrant Nerfs, now hilariously so. These need to be 75-85 pts.

[dkng]

Sept 11, 2023 0:35:14 GMT piersonsmuppet said:

Tyrannofex: pt increase was reasonable imo. Yes it got the damage reduction nerf, but Rupturefexes would be spammed in Nexus detachments at 200 pts.

You mean the Irresistible Will strat?
So making a model cost 22,5% more because it can benefit from a single stratagem to reroll 1s from a not-the-best detachment seems ok?

[piersonsmuppet]

the rr1’s increases the avg successful wounds by ~37%, so yea very good on a A2 D2d6 weapon. I think the blanking one damage instance to 0 was a side grade as opposed to a full nerf. Sure it’s worse against D2 weapons (that are likely wounding on 6’s), but you can blank a 10–12 damage shot that just ignored your 1+ save (cover) or more realistically a 6-7 damage shot.

[Iryan]

Barring any particularly unusual abilities, rerolling 1s to hit is always a flat multiplier of 7/6 to the number of wounds you inflict. Same for rerolling 1s to wound. So together they give an increase factor of 49/36 = 1.361, so 36% increase. Which is the same increase it gives to essentially every single unit you could apply it to (aside from units that already have rerolls or that hit automatically). And the Tyrannofex does not have exceptional damage for its (old) point cost. It's just tankier than average for that price tag. So I do not think that new stratagem is a good reason for the point increase.

[piersonsmuppet]

I mean there is also how good the Acidfex is with Overwatch (I didn’t think this needed to be stated). Granted the loss of double overwatch helped blunt the Tfex, but it’s still one of the best general uses for 1CP with Nids (second best being Nexus PotHM Neurotyrant overwatch). Still a good take at 245 pts, just won’t be seeing 2-3 jammed into every other list (exactly the effect pts increases should have).

[dkng]

Sept 12, 2023 5:35:14 GMT piersonsmuppet said:

I mean there is also how good the Acidfex is with Overwatch (I didn’t think this needed to be stated). Granted the loss of double overwatch helped blunt the Tfex, but it’s still one of the best general uses for 1CP with Nids (second best being Nexus PotHM Neurotyrant overwatch). Still a good take at 245 pts, just won’t be seeing 2-3 jammed into every other list (exactly the effect pts increases should have).

In a vacuum, you are correct but in a broader picture we got severly hampered in anti-tank and, to a bit lesser degree but still, anti-elite departments as Zoans also went up considerably. Both of those hikes make us so much more vulnerable to lists that lean towards vehicles and heavy infantry. There aren’t many lists in the meta that go heavily into hordes so our performance can drop painfully in times ahead. This, coupled with our horrific AP in melee, mean we got hit harder with the nerfs than it may seem in the first place and are forced to further narrow the choices in lists to stay competitive. Or go skewed, which was always the way to go but going skewed means getting hard-countered from time to time and makes the game more 0-1 overall.

[piersonsmuppet]

Eh, broad strokes we weren’t hit that bad. The list I ran recently with several tyrants and Zoan units didn’t actually increase that much because of other pts drops.

[N.I.B.]

The loss of double overwatch was enough to reign in the Acidfex, and with the loss of -1dmg on top, the +45pts was just malicious.

[piersonsmuppet]

Now that I see the 0 damage ability occurs before save rolls, yea the loss of -1D and no double overwatch was enough. RIP.

[broyston]

Really still sad about my beloved Carnifex's. In comparison to the Haruspex I can't see how they are both costed at 125 pts. In terms of hitting on 4+ vs 3+, number of attacks, wounds, toughness etc. The only thing the Fex has is the Blsitering Assualt rule, which isn't much use if you want a shooty Fex. Add in the nerf to the Heavy Venom Cannon and the mediocre stats of the old classic the Devourers it is all a bit sad. I am still surprised when I see people saying 120-125pts is fine for them. I don't know what a fair cost would be, but going down to 100 doesn't seem insane to me......