No One's 10e Lists

[No One]

New edition, new thread. Starting off with the first list that I basically just threw together to try some things out: bit of a gameplan, but nothing super coherent.

Hive Tyrant (lash whip and bonesword, heavy venom cannon, adaptive biology) 245
Neurotyrant (alien cunning) 135
3 Tyrant guard 95
Old One Eye 140
2 Carnifexes (crushing claws, heavy venom cannon etc) 250
Exocrine 135
Exocrine 135
Deathleaper 80
3 Zoanthropes 90
10 Gargoyles 75
Biovore 40
Trygon 180
Tyrannofex (acid spray) 200
Tyrannofex (acid spray) 200

Total: 2000

Played against knights, and basically played like my attitude to list and got my face punched in.

Moved up T1, did some damage, got charged because woops and promptly exploded from D8 and tank shock. Strat reserves showed up, some more damage, but it was over really. What shooting did basically nothing to t-fexes between T12, -1 D and usually the 5+++, which was nice.

Then played a rematch vs myself with actual gameface on, and after realising a couple of things. Gargs bodyblocked T1 and everything on board (fine with redeploys) let me get quite a bit of damage in (split fire a bit because of rotate, but at least a big knight's worth of wounds).

No charge, killed the zoans and t-guard (no way of hiding 'cause towering: couple of armigers could see but didn't do much). Shooting finished off one knight, carnis massively overkilled the other (29 wounds with adrenal even after fnp, had ended up on something like 11 after shooting chip, so...yeah, very dead). Knights didn't really have much more from there, had been behind on scoring thanks to the bodyblocks (including spore mines/DL). Also a battleshock from SitW prevented an objective steal for plenty of secondary points...except a different unit could do that on a different point, so...could've been super impactful, ended up being only a moderate inconvenience. Nothing really remarkable after that.

Overall takeaways:

 - Walkrant felt squishy for the points and was using the 5+++ to try and keep the t-guard up for more shooting even with adaptive bio. Of course, knights means there's not such thing as 'hdiing', which makes that evaluation more awkward. Double strat and free strat's very nice though, and the extra mobility from assault's great.

 - Gargs were great, especially with the redeploy: go 1st, move 18+d6", go second drop in DS and come in, move 6".

 - Exos were great in the match up, sitting at 36", stationary but still able to see: not the most amazing damage, but lethal helps and a couple of wounds through each turn adds up

 - Zoans did a decent chunk of damage, then promptly died: still seem good for 90 pts

 - T-fex were great tanks, basically ignored all the <S12 stuff between 2+ that often had cover and -1 D. S6 -2 really struggled, wounding on 5s or 6s and into effectively a 2+ 'cause cover, even worse with most having -1 D. But still could get some chip through, and a bad match up for the offensive profile. Still for 200 pts...

 - Poor neurotyrant struggles with 6" M and Fly changes, especially being squishy against towering. Didn't really do much, but I want something with redeploy, and not being 100% reliant on the walkrant for Synapse is nice. Not sure though, could be worth fiddling, maybe tyrant takes cunning and bring a parasite with Synapse.

 - OOE+friends were lovely: with lethal all of their guns were solid chip that really added up, strong damage in melee

 - Trygon seemed awkward to use and didn't actually hit that hard, even with adrenal: going 1st I wanted to drop early and didn't expect to have any relevant place to hide with RI. But making a 9" charge, or a 3" bodyblock, still made combat. But then didn't really do much, even having adrenal one time. Again knights isn't an amazing profile for S9, but for 180 pts very much not sold. That said, deployment zone can be a bit full, so having a midfield threat that doesn't clog up all my other midfield threats isn't a bad thing, at least for this list.

Anyway, that's my old list rambles. Second version, still being a bit blase regarding secondaries and scoring and still being a bit trial (see: trygon, pyro).

Hive Tyrant (lash whip and bonesword, heavy venom cannon, adaptive biology) 235
Neurotyrant (alien cunning) 135
3 Tyrant guard 95
Old One Eye 140
2 Carnifexes (crushing claws, heavy venom cannon etc) 250
Exocrine 135
Exocrine 135
Haruspex 125
Deathleaper 80
3 Zoanthropes 90
10 Gargoyles 75
Biovore 40
Pyro 30
Barbgaunts 50
Trygon 180
Tyrannofex (acid spray) 200

1995

Basically just took a t-fex out for a cheaper midfield bully (haruspex) and some utility: pyro for ignores cover, either advancing up or from strat reserves and just generally existing for 30 pts, and barbgants for solid anti-infantry shooting, both with damage and movement penalty.

Could go further with removing the trygon for exo/haruspex and...something random. And/Or aforementioned parasite. But again nothing really jumps out as something I really want at that price point with the spare pts, though could prob do something like exo/haruspex+gargs/zoans. 2nd bio would probably be responsible if I was properly doing mission play in the list as well .

[nidsallday]

yeah pyros seem somewhat interessting, sadly their ignore cover ability for other units only lasts until end of phase. so no ignore cover in melee.

[No One]

Cover is ranged only, so I don't think the distinction matters (outside lasting until next turn for overwatch, but I'm fine with that).

[nidsallday]

Jun 21, 2023 15:17:02 GMT No One said:

Cover is ranged only, so I don't think the distinction matters (outside lasting until next turn for overwatch, but I'm fine with that).

waaaait, there is no longer some kind of heavy cover?

edit: just checked. i must have totally ignored the part of the rules of 10th where it clearly state "if a ranged attack" in the cover section. thanks for responding earlier, i would have totally misplayed this part

[cmob208]

Any further thoughts on neurotyrant, biovore, or deathleaper? Those to me are the most questionable.

Also Hive Tyrant seems expensive since you have to bring the T-Guard. Free strats are nice though… worth it?

[No One]

cmob208 said:

Any further thoughts on neurotyrant, biovore, or deathleaper? Those to me are the most questionable.

Neurotyrant: underwhelming. You do want Synapse (though really, mostly just for the 5+++), and you do want cunning. Is the neurotyrant the best way? Maybe? I think parasite's arguably better but requires Synapse so couldn't have perfect or adaptive bio on the walkrant for survivability. But even then, with more zoans/'cepters I could see the Synapse part being redundant, and at that point it's essentially 130 odd points to give the walkrant permanent fnp, which is really bad.

Biovore: good. 40 pts to sit on a backfield point and throw a spore mine downfield for bodyblocks/secondaries, very strong.

Deathleaper: infil and lone op is a great way to get on the board early, contribute to secondaries, and force the opponent to close to be able to do something about you. And with stealth and 4++ there's a real chance if they don't commit something impactful they'll whiff and fail the kill.

Also Hive Tyrant seems expensive since you have to bring the T-Guard. Free strats are nice though… worth it?

Maybe: I think the t-guard are OK. Something's going to die and the t-guard aren't bad at dying for cost: not amazing, but 95 pts for 12 T8 3+ wounds that punish spill and have even easier cover access isn't bad. Walkrant's T10 2+/4++ 10 wounds is bad for cost though. But then double 5+++ is quite a good survivability bump: thing is I think it'll often just get used on the t-guard, then they'll die. If the walkrant subsequently lives, I think even for a turn it's very good (especially with bio for 4+++). Double 5+++, free/maybe double overwatch, free adrenal, or maybe just CP rr if nothing's happening. Otherwise...too expensive just for the essentially one 5+++ and slightly more mobility with a bit of shooting. Obviously it depends a bit on how much midboard short range shooting you have as to how useful the assault is, but you've also only got 6" to work with and space is tight with MCs and you want to spread out to some degree. So currently thinking it's good, but t-fex isn't good enough/it's not 220 pts good.

Definitely staying in for the moment: if nothing else I'm not sure what I'd cut it for right now.

[dkng]

Load up on Biovores. 2x3 at least.
Raveners are decent for their points.
1x6 or 2x3 Zoans should be nice too.

[No One]

I don't think there's any point in going beyond 3x1 bios, but yeah do want at least a second bio in there at some point. For the prev list I'd prob just drop the barbgaunts for a 2nd after the discussion in Stormcoil's thread. But at the moment I'm being lazy and focusing on on-board play as it were and leaving missions/scoring as secondary considerations. Just enough to see me through, essentially, because I'm not sure if we can play a good enough scoring game to have a chance without doing well on board: maybe, but can fiddle later.

Ravs seem eh for anything other than harassment/DS util, which I think either bios, gargs, or leapers do better depending. More zoans I could see, but I don't know: they feel like just a good unit, but not one that really contributes great to the MC gameplan of 'defensively statcheck'. Solid damage, but the defence is far more susceptible to alternative weapons, and no utility.

[dkng]

Don’t dismiss Biovores so easily. Blast and very precious Devastatnig Wounds with 2D is something we need considering sh!tty ap we sport. More Zoans will up your chances against Vehicle heavy armies unless you swap Acid spray in Tyrfexes for RCs. Ymmv as usual - I think those are worth consideration.

[nidsallday]

Jun 26, 2023 16:29:39 GMT dkng said:

Don’t dismiss Biovores so easily. Blast and very precious Devastatnig Wounds with 2D is something we need considering sh!tty ap we sport. More Zoans will up your chances against Vehicle heavy armies unless you swap Acid spray in Tyrfexes for RCs. Ymmv as usual - I think those are worth consideration.

yeah, i think too that bios are super versatile, they provide move block, hence controll of opponent and can help with secondaries. i think the are very good for their points cost.

[No One]

dkng said:

Don’t dismiss Biovores so easily. Blast and very precious Devastatnig Wounds with 2D is something we need considering sh!tty ap we sport.

Dev wounds does not mean 'good': it's just a rule that can do powerful things. But you know what was even more powerful? Always doing MWs. Know what was always garbage for overall output? Biovores in 9e. Now, heavy and looser indirect penalty means hitting on 4s usually instead of 6s usually, which is a big buff. But also you instead essentially need 6s to wound (albeit 2 damage, so it's the same on average but even less reliable), because AP-1 is pretty bad. Blast helps a bit, but I doubt there'll be anything worth shooting that's more than an extra shot, at which point meh. It's fine to have the option if there's not utility to be had from spores, but not anything I'd want them for.

Having a fiddle on Svknoe's matthammer sheets, bio is one of our outright worst output units.

More Zoans will up your chances against Vehicle heavy armies unless you swap Acid spray in Tyrfexes for RCs. Ymmv as usual - I think those are worth consideration.

Yeah, they're very much on the 'happy to have more of' but not sure if they're actually something I actively want more of. Offence is great, defence less so essentially, and I don't think the increased offence is worth it over e.g. exo, who's not far behind with lethal hits from adaptive.

In a similar vein, the only real advantage t-fex has over exo is durability, which RC leverages poorly but acid leverages well (and also overwatch for acid).

[piersonsmuppet]

Jun 26, 2023 16:29:39 GMT dkng said:

Don’t dismiss Biovores so easily. Blast and very precious Devastatnig Wounds with 2D is something we need considering sh!tty ap we sport. 

Eh, DEVASTATING WOUNDS is good with rr wounds, high volume, or high damage. Biovores don't really have any of these even when taking blast into consideration, so it's not really anything special when looking at their output. HG are roughly similar in output to Biovores, but can boost efficiency a fair amount with Overwatch (to the point they outperform Bios). I think I'd prefer 1x6 HG and 1-2x1 Biovores vice 2x3 Biovores, so that your pts for scoring aren't wasted when they are used to put down mediocre offense.

[dkng]

On paper HG seems fun and fine but in practice - not so much. Their Overwatch is a waste of CPs even on 4+ to hit. Impalers are weak, lack volume, and when shooting indirect are ap0. Don’t get me even started on Shockcannons which are a bad joke. Biovores are also ap0 when shooting oos but they at least have a chance to do mortals and most importantly can seed mines which can score you secondaries and impede enemies’ movement. They do well when you take more of them - a single one or a pair will always feel underperforming.
For 200 pts I’ll take 5 Bios over 6 HGs every single time. Proven in test games, not with theroycrafring.
Cheers.

[No One]

dkng said:

On paper HG seems fun and fine but in practice - not so much. Their Overwatch is a waste of CPs even on 4+ to hit. Impalers are weak, lack volume, and when shooting indirect are ap0. Don’t get me even started on Shockcannons which are a bad joke. Biovores are also ap0 when shooting oos but they at least have a chance to do mortals and most importantly can seed mines which can score you secondaries and impede enemies’ movement. They do well when you take more of them - a single one or a pair will always feel underperforming.
For 200 pts I’ll take 5 Bios over 6 HGs every single time. Proven in test games, not with theroycrafring.
Cheers.

I agree, HG shooting is underwhelming and the overwatch is just a gimmick (though I'm surprised that it's still worse than bios into basically everything that isn't 1W chaff *checks* Ah, because blast, wasn't really thinking about that. But still, wow HG are bad). That doesn't change biovore shooting sucks any time it's not getting lots of blast value, at which point, it's...still not good but OK indirect's still indirect. You mention bodyblocks and secondaries being much more important, which I agree with, but that wasn't what you said in the first place and 3x1 is the most utility you'll get from the former and likely diminishing returns on the latter (though I could definitely see something like old bios where you could reach a critical mass of mines as well as the more nuanced bodyblocks).

a single one or a pair will always feel underperforming.

Looks at all the secondaries a single or pair of singles can do and adding more does nothing. Sure. Similarly my 1.5 test games, just the one did amazing when I could bodyblock, but I would've had diminishing returns on more spores for bodyblocks (still worth 40 pts, but not something I'd want to spam as more than at most the 3x1 for flexibility in placement), while more for shooting would've been anemic. Blast helps, but only when it's relevant, which just isn't into most actually tanky squads: indirect for not tanky squads, but you can't reliably kill chaff scoring and I don't think there's much squishies that killing a couple is super relevant.

Edit: Oh actually, the fact that exploding's not optional and the opponent can generally move over friendly models, I don't even know how well they bodyblock anymore. Still does something even then and can be powerful otherwise, and just forcing a MW/turn/biovore's not bad either, but also worse than I thought they'd be.

[dkng]

I just assumed their mines spawning shenanigans were obvious That was one of the first things I checked when the Index came out - am I again able to litter the table with free mines and when the mines are not needed or you simply HAVE TO score a wound or two on a priority target Bios are the answer with their range and a chance to cause mortals.

P.S. On your last sentence - apart from Zoans and undercosted Haruspex (possibly a mistake) everything is „worse than we thought it would be”