Swarmlord vs Walkrant

[N.I.B.]

First, many talked about including both in their rosters, with Tyrant Guards. Then the points dropped and it turns out both looks kind of costly, Swarmlord clocking in at an extra +30pts. They have identical stats. Bringing only one of them, which would you take?


Swarmlord brings
Hive Commander: At the start of your Command phase, if this model is on the battlefield, you gain 1CP.

Malign Presence: Once per battle, after your opponent uses a Stratagem, if this model is your Warlord and is on the battlefield, it can use this ability. If it does, until the end of the battle, increase that Stratagem’s cost to your opponent by 1CP.

Domination of the Hive Mind: While a friendly Tyranids unit is within 9" of this model, that unit is within your army’s Synapse Range.

Swarmy also has a pretty decent psychic 'flamer' and two more attacks in melee over the Walkrant, with the same profile (lazy writing).



Walkrant brings
Will of the Hive Mind: Once per turn, one friendly Tyranids unit within 12" of one or more models with this ability can be targeted with a Stratagem for 0CP, even if another unit from your army has already been targeted with that Stratagem this phase.

Onslaught (Aura, Psychic): While a friendly Tyranids unit is within 6" of this model, ranged weapons equipped by models in that unit have the [ASSAULT] ability.

The new sub-par venomcannon still looks to be the best weapon alternative, sadly.
One thing to note is that even if you give, say a Rupturecannon [ASSAULT], the gun still has the [HEAVY] keyword, so if you move it's at -1 BS.


Thoughts -
I feel Walkrant looks to be a better force multiplier with the ability to take enhancements, either make him much more survivable than Swarmy (which fees wrong), or rather get the option of redeploying 3 units. I think Alien Cunning would be the go-to choice for experienced players. Also it seems to me Walkrant will usually end up saving you more CP than Swarmy will generate, over the course of a game.

The Swarmlord's 3" extra Synapse aura is neat, with several abilities triggering buffs within synapse. Currently though, to me it feels like a bit of meh, but perhaps it'll turn out more important than it seems to be. The appeal of the Swarmlord for me would be the somewhat scary beatstick walking up the center, probably penalizing my opponent's reroll strat.


What do you think?

[nidsallday]

tbh, im not rly sold on either 100%. their usecase seems somewhat conflicting. good support / army-anchor with CP manipulation which would imply to keep em save and play backfield to make sure to capitalize whole game. on the other hand pretty acceptable stats (ranged as well as melee) which would make them happy pushing towards center. problem is, their stats and abilities are reflected in their points (duh) and hence makes the somewhat conflicting role a balance act.
but for me personaly i think for the first few games i'll try to either put swarmy as backfield-anchor without guards and just capitalize on CP abilities (and, if enemy drops smth in my backfield i do have good stats and synapse there) or to go without any tyrant at all and put more carnifexes / zoans / ... in the list instead. but both might (are most likely) bad ideas.

[gauntlet]

Do you really need extra attacks of Swarmlord, when you have Tryant Guard bodyguards? The Walkrant seems better. It has 5+++ and (with Enhancement) 2x Reroll 2+/4++. Probably allows Zoans to Advance to get better targets or escape (synergy giving 6+ to Tyrant Guard). Swarmlord cannot shoot and Advance, so the Psychic shooting not as valuable as appears. Walkrant gets into combat quicker and is more likely to get there at all, because of survivability.
Swarmlord might be better if you sit hiding, without expense of Tyrant Guard, usng Malign Presence, waiting for Terminators to drop in your deployment zone.

I heard an experienced player say, movement is the key to winning 40k battles. Maybe we should still consider Flyrants, with 2x reroll 2+/4++ (you can also use the rerolls for other actions too).

EDIT: Thinking about the Hive Guard, they slow the Tyrant down.

If you are going to hide, and control your deployment zone, use the Swarminglord without Guard.
If you need an anchor in the midfield, use Walkrant, with Tyrant Guard and rerolls. (with Zoans and Venomthropes, Exocrene).
if you plan to take the fight into your opponents zone, Flyrant with Adaptive Biology, Rapid Ingress in their turn.

[No One]

N.I.B. said:

Thoughts -
I feel Walkrant looks to be a better force multiplier with the ability to take enhancements, either make him much more survivable than Swarmy (which fees wrong), or rather get the option of redeploying 3 units. I think Alien Cunning would be the go-to choice for experienced players. Also it seems to me Walkrant will usually end up saving you more CP than Swarmy will generate, over the course of a game.

The Swarmlord's 3" extra Synapse aura is neat, with several abilities triggering buffs within synapse. Currently though, to me it feels like a bit of meh, but perhaps it'll turn out more important than it seems to be. The appeal of the Swarmlord for me would be the somewhat scary beatstick walking up the center, probably penalizing my opponent's reroll strat.


What do you think?

The draw of Swarmy is +1 CP on strats. If that's not worthwhile, definitely the walkrant, as you laid out. The CP save and the ability to double dip on strats is better than 1 CP, the gun is better, enhancement is good (alien cunning>adaptive bio, but you could double dip with another char), you get mobility (and potentially some utility) with adv+shoot. By comparison, 9" Synapse and a bit extra melee is nice but not what I'd call amazing, but might be better with less Synapse options or something.

Stopping something like phantasm, or for nids 5+++, or I'm sure a bunch of impactful strats that want to be repeated, from effectively being used more than once without a large CP cost? That's great. Worth it over the competition? I don't think so, I think the number of strats that're great, used early, and spammable, aren't enough to justify effectively not being able to do the same thing ourselves. But I could see it.

One thing to note is that even if you give, say a Rupturecannon [ASSAULT], the gun still has the [HEAVY] keyword, so if you move it's at -1 BS.

No, if you move you don't get the +1 to hit. Heavy is only a positive.

gauntlet said:

I heard an experienced player say, movement is the key to winning 40k battles. Maybe we should still consider Flyrants, with 2x reroll 2+/4++ (you can also use the rerolls for other actions too).

Fly's gutted, T9 and no t-guard, when they're already not durable for cost, massive wings are a problem for both LoS, mobility and footprint, no gun, and no mobility improvement for the rest of the army. Meh. The idea of RI's interesting but then you're not really doing much with the free strats, still difficult to hide and I don't even know if the output's there to justify.

EDIT: Thinking about the Hive Guard, they slow the Tyrant down.

2" slower but they can walk through walls: when you want to actually deploy hidden (or at least getting cover), they're not really slower and even give you more charge options.

[N.I.B.]

Jun 21, 2023 11:50:25 GMT No One said:

One thing to note is that even if you give, say a Rupturecannon [ASSAULT], the gun still has the [HEAVY] keyword, so if you move it's at -1 BS.

No, if you move you don't get the +1 to hit. Heavy is only a positive.

Sure, but my point stands.

[gauntlet]

I think the Flyrant is equally as resilient as the Walkrant.
The Flyrant is not inherently weaker, it's just that it is more visible across the table. This maybe balanced out by starting off the table and Rapid Ingress, not having to take a couple of turns, walking to it's target. But if you are moving the Walkrant into the midfield, where it's going to lack cover, then it's just as exposed as the Flyrant.

Flyrant Option A
1 CP reroll 2+/4++
Perfectly Adapted reroll 2+/4++
0 CP Rapid Regeration 5+++
This option seems wasteful as you have to apply the Rapid Regeneration before shooting commences, and only lasts for 1 phase.

Flyrant Option B
0 CP reroll 2+/4++
Adaptive Biology 4+++
This option seems best as you can conserve CP if 2+/4++ successful 1st roll, and you can be selective with rerolls against high wounding weapons, like lascannons.

Walkrant Option C
1 CP reroll 2+/4++
Perfectly Adapted reroll 2+/4++
0 CP Rapid Regeration 5+++

Walkrant Option D
0 CP reroll 2+/4++
Adaptive Biology 4+++

Walkrant Option E
0 CP reroll 2+/4++
Perfectly Adapted reroll 2+/4++
Tyrant Guard 5+++

[gman25639]

Jun 21, 2023 10:06:36 GMT N.I.B. said:

First, many talked about including both in their rosters, with Tyrant Guards. Then the points dropped and it turns out both looks kind of costly, Swarmlord clocking in at an extra +30pts. They have identical stats. Bringing only one of them, which would you take?


Swarmlord brings
Hive Commander: At the start of your Command phase, if this model is on the battlefield, you gain 1CP.

Malign Presence: Once per battle, after your opponent uses a Stratagem, if this model is your Warlord and is on the battlefield, it can use this ability. If it does, until the end of the battle, increase that Stratagem’s cost to your opponent by 1CP.

Domination of the Hive Mind: While a friendly Tyranids unit is within 9" of this model, that unit is within your army’s Synapse Range.

Swarmy also has a pretty decent psychic 'flamer' and two more attacks in melee over the Walkrant, with the same profile (lazy writing).



Walkrant brings
Will of the Hive Mind: Once per turn, one friendly Tyranids unit within 12" of one or more models with this ability can be targeted with a Stratagem for 0CP, even if another unit from your army has already been targeted with that Stratagem this phase.

Onslaught (Aura, Psychic): While a friendly Tyranids unit is within 6" of this model, ranged weapons equipped by models in that unit have the [ASSAULT] ability.

The new sub-par venomcannon still looks to be the best weapon alternative, sadly.
One thing to note is that even if you give, say a Rupturecannon [ASSAULT], the gun still has the [HEAVY] keyword, so if you move it's at -1 BS.


Thoughts -
I feel Walkrant looks to be a better force multiplier with the ability to take enhancements, either make him much more survivable than Swarmy (which fees wrong), or rather get the option of redeploying 3 units. I think Alien Cunning would be the go-to choice for experienced players. Also it seems to me Walkrant will usually end up saving you more CP than Swarmy will generate, over the course of a game.

The Swarmlord's 3" extra Synapse aura is neat, with several abilities triggering buffs within synapse. Currently though, to me it feels like a bit of meh, but perhaps it'll turn out more important than it seems to be. The appeal of the Swarmlord for me would be the somewhat scary beatstick walking up the center, probably penalizing my opponent's reroll strat.


What do you think?

You're mistaken about the new way Heavy weapons work. They no longer get a -1 for moving, they get a +1 for NOT moving. Also I'm giving Swarmy a go first, his CP generation and increased cost to an opposing Stratagem seems useful.

[acehilator]

I'm leaning towards both, and no Guard. Strats are strong, and CP limited. Both their abilities are very very useful.

Flying HT is significantly weaker than Walkrant, T9 vs T10 makes a massive difference.

[dkng]

Neurotyrant

Same T and M as TGs. Actually makes them better in combat. Synaptic Relays is awesome. It also makes our sh!tty superpower a bit less sh!tty. And all this for meagre 105 points.

[N.I.B.]

Jun 21, 2023 14:51:49 GMT gman25639 said:

You're mistaken about the new way Heavy weapons work. They no longer get a -1 for moving, they get a +1 for NOT moving.

It was pointed out above, perhaps it wasn't clear that I was trying to give a heads up that the weapon keywords don't disappear, you just get another one (assault).

[acehilator]

Jun 21, 2023 15:34:30 GMT dkng said:

Neurotyrant

Same T and M as TGs. Actually makes them better in combat. Synaptic Relays is awesome. It also makes our sh!tty superpower a bit less sh!tty. And all this for meagre 105 points.

Needs TG, so in reality, it's also 200 points. Might be ok if you plan on running lots of Gribblies to use Relays on, otherwise, the more I think about it, I consider it a trap choice. "Our faction ability is bad, so I take this 200 point unit to make it less bad." Sounds like sunk cost fallacy. Shame really, love the model. Luckily I play in a relaxed local meta, might still use it.

(Still can't get over the fact that his big brain is only producing as much dakka as the SL. Wtf.)

[infornography]

Yeah, I wish the Neurotyrant did more psyker stuff. Like maybe give 1 psyker within synapse range a second use of one psyker ability each turn.

[dkng]

Jun 21, 2023 17:20:52 GMT infornography said:

Yeah, I wish the Neurotyrant did more psyker stuff. Like maybe give 1 psyker within synapse range a second use of one psyker ability each turn.

D6+6 shots with ap -2 would make me happy enough.

[No One]

acehilator said:

Needs TG, so in reality, it's also 200 points. Might be ok if you plan on running lots of Gribblies to use Relays on, otherwise, the more I think about it, I consider it a trap choice. "Our faction ability is bad, so I take this 200 point unit to make it less bad." Sounds like sunk cost fallacy. Shame really, love the model. Luckily I play in a relaxed local meta, might still use it.

(Still can't get over the fact that his big brain is only producing as much dakka as the SL. Wtf.)

Nah, don't take a 100 pt unit to protect your 100 pt unit. Just hide behind a wall, throw some 12" Synapse nodes, pop bonus SitW and move out and maybe not die because still T8 4++ and not really threatening.

Agreed that purely on datasheet it's underwhelming: better options for Synapse. Only advantage to me is that it gives both strong Synapse coverage and can have an enhancement, which considering how strong redeploy is, how Synapse is pretty strong for strats if nothing else, and we have no cheap Characters either...I think it's a niche but OK use case.

[phenatix]

The Neurotyrant has merit with a big blob of Tyrant Guard even though that group won’t be very killy. They provide nice ablative wounds for the Neurotyrant and with larger footprint can hopefully draw some fire from your bigger threats like Haruspex, Exocrine, and Trygons.