10ed Terrain rules are hard for Horde armies

[trashcan01]

I'm about to have my first 10ed game, and I went over the Terrain rules a bit.

Most relevant terrain (Craters/Ruins*) now grant Benefit of Cover (BoC) to units fully within them. Unlike 9th, you are no longer allowed to allocate wounds to models on ruins and roll saves with BoC.
Debris is checked per "attacking unit to defending model" basis, meaning most of the time you'll have at least some BoC saving rolls. 


Meaning - our hordes are going to have a harder time on the battlefield, especially with Termagants moving to bigger bases. 
Long story short - Venomthropes are a must include in Hordes.


*Ruins also grant BoC if they obstruct line of sight, similar how the Debris work.


edit: I'm stupid and blind.

[dkng]

No.
The terrain grants BoC to models wholly within, not units wholly within.

[piersonsmuppet]

Craters and Ruins are MODELS wholly within the terrain feature.

[trashcan01]

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh. Okay. Okay. Thanks a bunch!
Good thing I looked up the rules properly, eh.

[dkng]

Also take a close look on ruins rules.
Models can see out of and into them but not through them. That can lead to some confusion at the beginning as it works differently than we are used to in 9th (at least if you were playing with WTC rules).

[piersonsmuppet]

Jun 18, 2023 11:07:42 GMT dkng said:

Also take a close look on ruins rules.
Models can see out of and into them but not through them. That can lead to some confusion at the beginning as it works differently than we are used to in 9th (at least if you were playing with WTC rules).

How so? From what I've read it, ruin visibility is the same as 9E obscuring (except for AIRCRAFT and TOWERING).

[dkng]

Like I said I’ve been playing WTC rules. With WTC the ruins were L-shaped and some of them had windows - in those, when a unit was touching the wall it was visible and while it was about 1” away from the wallit was obstructed (it was working both ways). Now the rulebook says that units „within” ruins are visible and can see normally as long as true line of sight is there.

[piersonsmuppet]

Ah I see, rules went from "within can see normally" to "wholly within can see normally". Certainly makes seeing out of WTC's ruins with the tiny footprint tricky, and anything on a base larger than 32mm can't out of WTC ruins. Real easy to hide behind ruins from shooting though, nothing can just touch the outside wall and shoot through the ruin.

[No One]

Also you just have normal LoS into the ruin, rather than "obscuring" not "protecting" models that are within, so e.g. a wing inside a ruin is visible even if the base isn't within. Combined with Fly changes and MC/vehicles suffer a lot more from terrain.

[piersonsmuppet]

I'm not sure if a wing being in the terrain would be sufficient, since within/not within is determined by the base (unless the model measures to/from the hull). A winged Hive Tyrant would be on the other side of the terrain if its base is not touching but a wing crosses the footprint threshold. The current Ruins visibility rules would prohibit the Tyrant from being shot at by units seeing into the ruin normally. Is there something in the commentary offering a better explanation for non-hull large models?

Edit: Looks like commentary uses a model with a hull...

[No One]

piersonsmuppet said:

I'm not sure if a wing being in the terrain would be sufficient, since within/not within is determined by the base (unless the model measures to/from the hull).

Compare and contrast:

9e BRB said:

Models that are on or within this terrain feature can see, and can be seen and targeted normally.

The 9e version, where it is purely based on whether you're within or not, that you can both see out, but also be seen. Versus:

10e BRB said:

Models can see into this terrain feature normally, and models that are wholly within this terrain feature can see out of it normally.

The 10e version, you have visibility out being normal only for models that are wholly within. But the rule for visibility in makes no mention of the model it's shooting, within or otherwise. i.e. It's just that you can "see into this terrain feature normally": that being, LoS into the terrain is normal. Thus a part of the model, regardless of whether that model is actually within in a mechanical sense (i.e. base), could be seen normally and the model itself is a valid target.

piersonsmuppet said:

Is there something in the commentary offering a better explanation for non-hull large models?

Nope, but again:

Commentary said:

but as models can see into ruins normally, this Infantry unit can see the Vehicle.

It refers to wholly within where the unit is wholly within and able to see normally, and for shooting the vehicle it does not refer to within, but rather being able to see in normally.

[piersonsmuppet]

I don't think the Commentary has any bearing on the question of how to handle a non-hull model which is not within the terrain (and is on the "other side" per the ruins rules) but a part of the model overlaps with the terrain footprint.

Edit: The tank in the commentary is within the ruin for the example (HULL), a Winged Tyrant with just a wing overhanging would not be within the terrain. I'm not saying you're wrong, as I'd like it to be simple. However, neither interpretation is explicitly correct as it currently stands.