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Post by hiveprime on Jun 17, 2023 0:22:02 GMT
we should all put our heads together and come up with some points values using the brain cells whoever wrote the new points values lacks, and while we're writing the game for GW, maybe we could write up some army rules and unit rules since literally all of them have been eradicated? An idea to start : gaunts being back to 4/5 points and squad sizes up to 30 again (gargoyles too (6pts)) hive tyrant being lowered below 200, maybe to like 175 and winged one drops to maybe 150 and swarmlord back down to like 200 since conclusively they are basically useless now - as guard are a fortune and they have few wounds etc... tervigon needs a lower trygon could do with a minor lower in points... don't even get me started on spore mines - what were they smoking making these points?  doesn't seem playtested at all as the best list i can see using that is like 18 zoanthropes 3 haruspex 3 venomthropes an exocrine and pyrovores / +/- 3 biovores and if that's not enough then more zoans!!!!!!! |
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Post by parzaius on Jun 17, 2023 1:36:05 GMT
Some are bad. Some are good. Barbgaunts are criminally good. Zoanthropes are very reasonable. Old One Eye is the cost all carnifexes ought to be. Venomthropes, Mawloc, Haruspex, and Leapers are all very usable.
Others ARE very bad. Swarmlord is a good 100 points more than he deserves, with his awful Epic Hero status. The fliers are 50pts away from being reasonable. Tervigons are probably 100 pts more than they ought to be. Parasite and Broodlord would be fine if they still had synapse, but since they don't, ding 'em down 20-30 pts.
And so forth. Just like 9th, around half the codex is playable, and the other half is garbage. It remains to be seen if the half that's good can actually make strong lists, like in 9th, or if the tools we need all fell into the bad column.
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Post by purestrain on Jun 17, 2023 1:49:30 GMT
Some are bad. Some are good. Barbgaunts are criminally good. Zoanthropes are very reasonable. Old One Eye is the cost all carnifexes ought to be. Venomthropes, Mawloc, Haruspex, and Leapers are all very usable. Others ARE very bad. Swarmlord is a good 100 points more than he deserves, with his awful Epic Hero status. The fliers are 50pts away from being reasonable. Tervigons are probably 100 pts more than they ought to be. Parasite and Broodlord would be fine if they still had synapse, but since they don't, ding 'em down 20-30 pts. And so forth. Just like 9th, around half the codex is playable, and the other half is garbage. It remains to be seen if the half that's good can actually make strong lists, like in 9th, or if the tools we need all fell into the bad column. Every single unit save rippers and sky slashers were extremely viable in 9th... |
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Post by ilovethenids on Jun 17, 2023 1:56:36 GMT
This is the exact thing I was concerned about. A unit can have an insanely good profile but it's the profile combined with the points cost that make something viable.
I'll be using homebrew points values for all the (please do not swear) ones, might even increase some that are too good to balance out. But as is, we shouldn't be surprised considering the general treatment Tyranids get from GW.
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Post by parzaius on Jun 17, 2023 1:56:59 GMT
Some are bad. Some are good. Barbgaunts are criminally good. Zoanthropes are very reasonable. Old One Eye is the cost all carnifexes ought to be. Venomthropes, Mawloc, Haruspex, and Leapers are all very usable. Others ARE very bad. Swarmlord is a good 100 points more than he deserves, with his awful Epic Hero status. The fliers are 50pts away from being reasonable. Tervigons are probably 100 pts more than they ought to be. Parasite and Broodlord would be fine if they still had synapse, but since they don't, ding 'em down 20-30 pts. And so forth. Just like 9th, around half the codex is playable, and the other half is garbage. It remains to be seen if the half that's good can actually make strong lists, like in 9th, or if the tools we need all fell into the bad column. Every single unit save rippers and sky slashers were extremely viable in 9th... You are wildly mistaken. I could go source up a bunch of 9e army lists and show how every one uses the same basic layout up until the first mega nerf, then they all use the stuff that didn't get nerfed till the other mega nerf. Then, it doesn't really matter what the lists look like because faction was left with just the garbage units and win rates dropped from 65% to 45% in two months. But in any event, that's completely beside the point of the post. What are your thoughts on 10e? Do you agree with the OP? Do you have a different take? |
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Post by No One on Jun 17, 2023 3:12:36 GMT
don't even get me started on spore mines - what were they smoking making these points? Oh no, the unit nobody takes is costed so high that nobody should even worry about the fact they're not taking them. Anyway, saying our points are bad is a hot take. Unless you mean wildly imbalanced between good and bad, in which case yes: 10e points in general are just wild, made worse by the fact it's "totally not PL", but at least we've got some very spicy points along with the stupid ones, and the good ones are on much more impactful units IMO. My 9e list's down 500 pts, 135 pt exo, most of the gribbly/mid range stuff seems at least playable pts cost. Nothing except zoans looks actually exciting there, but most should be functional for scoring/secondaries/general board play. Then most MCs are looking reasonable/undercosted: just ignore the garbage (200 pt tox and 145 pt sporocyst...OK?). Parasite and Broodlord would be fine if they still had synapse, but since they don't, ding 'em down 20-30 pts. I mean, one can take better Synapse for 10 pts: I think they're a tad too expensive just on rate and don't really do much though, but the option's there. |
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Post by parzaius on Jun 17, 2023 3:20:38 GMT
don't even get me started on spore mines - what were they smoking making these points? Oh no, the unit nobody takes is costed so high that nobody should even worry about the fact they're not taking them. Anyway, saying our points are bad is a hot take. Unless you mean wildly imbalanced between good and bad, in which case yes: 10e points in general are just wild, made worse by the fact it's "totally not PL", but at least we've got some very spicy points along with the stupid ones, and the good ones are on much more impactful units IMO. My 9e list's down 500 pts, 135 pt exo, most of the gribbly/mid range stuff seems at least playable pts cost. Nothing except zoans looks actually exciting there, but most should be functional for scoring/secondaries/general board play. Then most MCs are looking reasonable/undercosted: just ignore the garbage (200 pt tox and 145 pt sporocyst...OK?). Parasite and Broodlord would be fine if they still had synapse, but since they don't, ding 'em down 20-30 pts. I mean, one can take better Synapse for 10 pts: I think they're a tad too expensive just on rate and don't really do much though, but the option's there. That's true. But only one. Works for 1k games, but sucks for 2k, cause your second genestealer unit is going to break easier than a squad of guardsmen |
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Post by No One on Jun 17, 2023 4:18:52 GMT
Stealers at 18 ppm I'm not sure you'd want more than one anyway, especially when leapers give early midboard presence etc for cheaper than even a min stealer unit. While 280 pts for a 10 man stealers+BL as a combat unit is pricey for one, let alone multiple.
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Post by parzaius on Jun 17, 2023 4:33:13 GMT
Stealers at 18 ppm I'm not sure you'd want more than one anyway, especially when leapers give early midboard presence etc for cheaper than even a min stealer unit. While 280 pts for a 10 man stealers+BL as a combat unit is pricey for one, let alone multiple. Yeah, that's fair. Genestealers got the +1 wound but lost a ton of mobility and killability, while their old Space Hulk go-to target, the Terminators, FLEW out of the stealer's ability to actually kill them. And, since Termies can get 2 dmg weapons, the bonus wound is pointless against them anyway, so it's just a net loss. Without rending, down to max 10 in a unit, and the massive proliferation of vehicle Toughness, they can't even use force of numbers to peel light vehicles. Now, all stealers are good for is MEQ, of which there are already plenty of other, cheaper options. It's a pity, but to be fair, they sucked in 9e too, getting massively outclassed by their GSC alternates. They had their time in the sun during 8th edition. Nothing stays golden. |
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Post by No One on Jun 17, 2023 5:04:15 GMT
In 9e they could at least function as glass cannons with Behemoth, or at the very least had a niche in infiltrate (I was running a unit in my end 9e lists purely for that). Now...they pay more for defence that doesn't really do much and need a BL for their only offensive combo, scout's worse than infiltrate by a fair way, and we just outright have strong infiltrate options...
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Jun 17, 2023 5:59:07 GMT
Tyrants & SL seem decently costed for what they do, Surge and Regen are going to EAT CP. Generating CP to fuel the usage of those or getting a second use per turn is going to be very good.
Horms look like they are priced well to me. They retained their 9e AP, got free adv & charge, and can play very well with every single Tyranid strat.
Zoans are a joy at 30pts, I'll be running all 12 of mine. They look great in general, and that 6++ aura is beautiful for hordes. Stupid good efficiency with Regen and a decent target for Insight. Which seems to me like a key for our book.
OOE and a Carnifex brood for 390 pts looks good, and another decent target for Insight.
Exo... yea 135 is a good deal. Great gun and some rr's for the army in shooting, sign me up. Free reserves will help position them safely.
Edit: Surge can't affect shooting... derp!
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Post by svknoe on Jun 17, 2023 6:15:23 GMT
The new points are _great_ for use. Sure, some units suck, the SK isn't worth 180 points. I've posted some point efficiency figures here: thetyranidhive.proboards.com/post/1015305/threadWhile Marines and Eldar are better than us, I expect us to be a very good army going forwards. Some of our best units are Exocrines, Haruspexes, Tyrannofexes, OOE with Carnifexes, Venomthropes, Warriors, Genestealers, Biovores, Barbgaunts, Gargoyles, Pyrovores, Zoanthropes and Raveners. |
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Post by No One on Jun 17, 2023 7:59:05 GMT
Tyrants & SL seem decently costed for what they do, Surge and Regen are going to EAT CP. Generating CP to fuel the usage of those or getting a second use per turn is going to be very good. Yeah, I think you want one, we've got good strat options: two is too much I think, definitely pricey for what they bring, and walkrant seems better outright in most lists. Assault acid t-fex or carnis? Yes please. And free strat per turn is better overall CP, and while Swarmy has more general utility in where you can spend, tyrant lets you double dip on powerful strats. I could see Swarmy being better to counter other army's game-long strats. Surge is Fight only. |
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Post by Iryan on Jun 17, 2023 8:29:03 GMT
The points for all armies are extremely all over the place, with lots of units being way over- or undercosted. I can't say if we got a better or worse deal than average in that arrangement, but the complete lack of effort or sense in the Field Manual is very disappointing.
For the units that went down in points a lot from 9th to 10th, keep in mind that some of those actually became a lot less powerful as well. Thinking specifically about the Exocrine and Zoanthropes here, although I think both of them got cheaper to a degree that they might come out as a good unit in the end. Haruspex costing the same as a Carnifex despite being way tankier and killier at the same time is very amusing, definitely a winner in my book.
Another hilarious discrepancy is between Lictor (75p) and Deathleaper (80p). Yes, I would like to pay 5 extra points to get +1 wound, a 4++, the protection of the Lone Operative rule, and a fear aura! Of course, Lictors are hella overcosted, but Deathleaper might be good.
...I just realized I have not made a post here in probably like 2 years since I completely skipped 9th edition mostly because of the pandemic. Whoops.
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Jun 17, 2023 8:30:41 GMT
Ah true. Zoans and full hit rr Carnifex are still good targets for Insight at least. Probably means you want Hybrid Claw/Cannon or Double talon fexes with OOE. |
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doesn't seem playtested at all as the best list i can see using that is like 18 zoanthropes 3 haruspex 3 venomthropes an exocrine and pyrovores / +/- 3 biovores and if that's not enough then more zoans!!!!!!!
