Points!! I need points!!

[gman25639]

Jun 16, 2023 15:29:29 GMT dkng said:

I was right about Neurogaunts costing 4 ppm They do make sense for this kind of price.
One thing I dont really get - we can take either 3 or 6 Tyrant Guard? Cause one of them costs 31,(6) points so if I want to take 5 do I round up the points?

You don't take 5. You take 3 or you take 6. That's how it works now.

[acehilator]

We just got lucky in that regard because we have so little options. For armies like SM, CSM or Guard, the new rules are retarded. Even for GSC. No points for options works in AoS because there, options are designed as sidegrades, in 40k, not. For the overall game, it's a braindead move.

[gman25639]

Jun 16, 2023 18:21:33 GMT acehilator said:

We just got lucky in that regard because we have so little options. For armies like SM, CSM or Guard, the new rules are retarded. Even for GSC. No points for options works in AoS because there, options are designed as sidegrades, in 40k, not. For the overall game, it's a braindead move.

IDK much about the other armies but all of our options definitely seem like sidegrades to me. Look at the Carnifex, none of its gear seems inherently better or worse than any of the others, just depends on what you want your Fex to do. Only exceptions being there is absolutely no reason to NOT take Bio-Plasma and Spine Banks, since they're completely free and don't replace any other options.

[infornography]

I am surprised at how many people LIKE the fixed unit sizes and lack of granularity. I certainly don't. It trivializes my favorite part of the game, listbuilding.

Planning out your list has always been a fun exercise. Tweaking all the little details to get the optimal result is something I actually found fun.

Also everything being divisible by 5 means you could just divide all points by 5 and get the same result. We should just play 400 point games with 20 gargs costing 30 points. It is stupid. I guess it allows GW the flexibility to tweak by smaller increments in the future, but for now at least, it is just silly.

Also building a list at (or even particularly close to) 2000 points will be much MORE frustrating now. I can't just drop in 3 more gaunts here and an upgrade or two there. I have to either accept that my list is 25 points under or delete a unit and put in a more expensive one or two cheaper ones.

Oh well, things change, moving on, just grumpy about it.

[infornography]

Jun 16, 2023 18:44:50 GMT gman25639 said:

Jun 16, 2023 18:21:33 GMT acehilator said:

We just got lucky in that regard because we have so little options. For armies like SM, CSM or Guard, the new rules are retarded. Even for GSC. No points for options works in AoS because there, options are designed as sidegrades, in 40k, not. For the overall game, it's a braindead move.

IDK much about the other armies but all of our options definitely seem like sidegrades to me. Look at the Carnifex, none of its gear seems inherently better or worse than any of the others, just depends on what you want your Fex to do. Only exceptions being there is absolutely no reason to NOT take Bio-Plasma and Spine Banks, since they're completely free and don't replace any other options.

The cannons on the warriors are clear upgrades. Spinefists on gants are clear downgrades. The T-Fex guns are not balanced to each other. Rippers without spinemaws are obviously weaker than those with. Crushing Claws are clearly the better melee option almost everywhere it is an option.

It gets much more silly with Space Marines, but it is pretty silly with Nids.

[No One]

infornography said:

Spinefists on gants are clear downgrades.

Eh, with how "actions" work they have merit.

The cannons on the warriors are clear upgrades. Spinefists on gants are clear downgrades. The T-Fex guns are not balanced to each other. Rippers without spinemaws are obviously weaker than those with. Crushing Claws are clearly the better melee option almost everywhere it is an option.

I will say most of our stuff is more just meh GW balancing weapon options: a lot would just be the same cost anyway.

It's stuff like GSC, Tau, marines etc where it becomes very silly e.g. GSC: you could take autopistols, or hand flamers on acolytes: one of these is so objectively better it's stupid. What if I want a melee unit that's not going to be shooting, or a throwaway scoring unit? Doesn't matter, you pay for all of those upgrades anyway, even if you don't want them or don't take them. PL was not a good balanced system and this is PL (though they've at least balanced for the best case I guess, so you can't cheese it, but uhh...that just means that most of the datasheet options just don't exist or aren't 'options' at all).

[trashcan01]

Well, they did announce that 10ed will be "simplified". This is part of it I guess.
I will miss the micromanagement during list building from the previous editions.

[gman25639]

I, for one, will NOT be missing micromanagement in list building, it often came down to fussing over a precise number of Gaunts to get the points to add up cleanly. Forget that noise, everything coming in preset sizes with points costs all divisible by 5 is a welcome change.

[acehilator]

All upgrades for free is *not good*, no two ways about it. Weapons were not created equal. A Boltgun and a Lascannon is not even in the same ballpark, why should it cost the same. Deathspitter and Venom Cannon is not that crass, but still sufficient to make the point.

It's rules for people who can't do... what... fourth grade math? Fifth grade?

"Simplified, not simple." Ah rofl.

Mod edit: language

[riverzora]

Jun 17, 2023 21:40:08 GMT acehilator said:

All upgrades for free is not good, no two ways about it. Weapons were not created equal. A Boltgun and a Lascannon is not even in the same ballpark, why should it cost the same. Deathspitter and Venom Cannon is not that crass, but still sufficient to make the point.

It's rules for people who can't do... what... fourth grade math? Fifth grade?

"Simplified, not simple." Ah rofl.

The points assume you’ll take the best options. If one in three models can take a lascannon, the points reflect that for three.

[acehilator]

Jun 17, 2023 22:12:18 GMT riverzora said:

The points assume you’ll take the best options. If one in three models can take a lascannon, the points reflect that for three.

Not when the missile launcher exists. (see Tyrannofex weapons)

Also no option to get cheap squads that do nothing in game except hide.

I am 100% on board with reducing options, but in typical GW fashion, they overshot the design goal by several parsec.

[yoritomo]

Meh, this is how 40K was when I started. Buying “per model” always felt cheesy to me. The Codex Astarties says marines fight in squads of 10 with one special weapon and one heavy weapon, so why do I see seven man squads or 5 man squads with both special and heavy weapons (that one is from years past).

Fixed squad sizes is a list building limitation you need to work around. It’s not that bad once you get used to it.

And all inclusive points is something you should have seen coming. GW has been moving towards it for years now.

[No One]

yoritomo said:

And all inclusive points is something you should have seen coming. GW has been moving towards it for years now.

They've been moving towards it, but mostly been doing a good job of still differentiating the most egregious different options. e.g. Devs were always going to have a heavy weapon, but MM were the best so actually costed. Actually relevant GSC options (hand flamers, icons, proper heavy weapons) were optional but costed. They even had scaling costs for Tau weapon options.

Now it's...straight up no choices, options, flexibility with points essentially across the board. Don't really mind the fixed squad sizes too much, especially since they're actually using that fixed to fiddle with "ppm" into awkward multiples, but also not sure it's an actual improvement either. Weapon costs 100% across the board gone? I think that's just bad: I think they had a mostly good balance last mfm, but not now.

[Jbizzy]

Probably just index hammer. They didn't even differentiate warrior close combat weapons.

Have to save the icing for the cake in the codex...

[acehilator]

Nah. They just went there, full steam ahead. They AoS'ed 40k more than AoS itself, lol.