Neurogaunt Look Out Sir wishful thinking.

[trashcan01]

pg. 24 Hints and Tips - Fast dice rolling


"The rules for making attacks have been written assuming you will resolve them one at the time. However it is possible to speed up your battles..."
Is it because they didn't write in this section that the attacks need to have the same BSkill, Str, AP and same Dmg and targeted at models with the same Toughness?


pg 39. LEADER

"While a Bodyguard unit contains a Leader, it is known as an Attached unit and, with the exception of rules that are triggered when units are destroyed (pg 12),
it is treated as a single unit for all rules purposes. Each time an attack targets an Attached unit, until the attacking unit has resolved all of its attacks,
you must use the Toughness  characteristic of the Bodyguard models in that unit, even if a Leader in that unit has a different Toughness characteristic.

Each time an attack successfully wounds an Attached unit, that attack cannot be allocated to a CHARACTER model in that unit,
even if that CHARACTER model has lost one or more wounds or has already had attacks allocated to it this phase.

As soon as the last Bodyguard model in an Attached unit has been destroyed, any attacks made against that unit that have yet to be allocated can then
be allocated to CHARACTER models in that unit."

Where does it say you can't slow roll? Also, the word "attack" is used when attacking the Attached unit. Singular.

The last paragraph in the Leader says you allocate attacks on the Attached unit until destroyed, then go to Leader with the remaining attacks. 
The rules don't say allocate wounds or damage. Remaining attacks are allocated to CHARACTER models.

Attack (pg 21.) : roll ONE DICE to hit - roll ONE DICE to wound - allocate attack - roll ONE DICE to save - resolve normal damage from the attacking unit - resolve mortal wounds.


Sorry. I'm stupid. Or blind. Or both.  It's clear as day for me.

[purestrain]

So it seems like the character is screwed no matter what, it never says that you resolve the rest of the attacks using the characters toughness, it only stipulates that until the attacking unit resolves ALL its attacks, you have to use the toughness of the bodyguard models.

That seems really bad for things like HT or the Prime

[trashcan01]

It's going to be clarified, I hope.

edit: I'm gonna play it - Fast roll to hit, slow roll to wound. FAQ FAQ FAQ

[jesses]

Jun 7, 2023 19:03:01 GMT trashcan01 said:

It's going to be clarified, I hope.

edit: I'm gonna play it - Fast roll to hit, slow roll to wound. FAQ FAQ FAQ

"Each time an attack targets an Attached unit, until the attacking unit has resolved all of its attacks, you must use the Toughness characteristic of the Bodyguard models in that unit, even if a Leader in that unit has a different Toughness characteristic."

[trashcan01]

But you (should) resolve one attack at a time. Once the last Bodyguard model is dead, it's no longer an Attached unit.

Let's say you're right and I'm wrong. I get what you're saying and if you're right - it sucks for the Leaders.

No point in arguing at this time. We shall see.

[jesses]

It doesn't matter if you resolve one attack at a time. It literally specifies that until ALL of the units attacks are resolved, you use the Bodyguards Toughness.

Is it dumb? Absolutely.

But its not UNCLEAR. This doesn't need an FAQ, it needs an errata to remove a stupid rule.

[No One]

I think it's 100% intentional and thus is unlikely to get an errata: simplified not simple, there's a few things (e.g. cover as well) where they're essentially sacrificing tactical/thematic depth for the sake of convenience/ease of play. Which I don't mind too much, at least in general. But in this specific case, really ouch.

[creatureboi]

As usual they probably weren’t thinking about tyranids when they made this rule up. We are probably the only faction where there is a significant disparity between the toughness value of the character and the toughness value of the bodyguard unit. Most of the time you would be looking at things like space marines, Astra militarum or other all-infantry combinations where a character is just a slightly better version of the base unit and is usually the same toughness or just one point more. The only reason it’s a problem for us is because the tyrants are so much tougher than the gaunts supposedly guarding them

[naviedzony]

Neurogaunts are so useless I'm gonna start calling them Nopegaunts.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

I have yet to see anything where neurogaunts are praised as being good. Barring super cheap points, I don't see them as being fielded very often.

[gauntlet]

Jun 9, 2023 9:03:58 GMT naviedzony said:

Neurogaunts are so useless I'm gonna start calling them Nopegaunts.

They are Neurog-Anti 2+, with Devastating Wounds.

[gauntlet]

Jun 8, 2023 13:53:04 GMT creatureboi said:

As usual they probably weren’t thinking about tyranids when they made this rule up. We are probably the only faction where there is a significant disparity between the toughness value of the character and the toughness value of the bodyguard unit. Most of the time you would be looking at things like space marines, Astra militarum or other all-infantry combinations where a character is just a slightly better version of the base unit and is usually the same toughness or just one point more. The only reason it’s a problem for us is because the tyrants are so much tougher than the gaunts supposedly guarding them

Maybe they were not really intended to be attached to NeuroTyrant, a leaked earlier datasheet was showing Neurolids were supposed to be the attached bodyguard unit.

Maybe what was intented will become clearer when we get the datasheet for the Nodebeast, perhaps it has T3 and Synapse.

[infornography]

We have all the datasheets from the index already. Nodebeast is JUST another neurogaunt. Nothing special about it.

[trashcan01]

Jun 11, 2023 13:34:01 GMT infornography said:

We have all the datasheets from the index already. Nodebeast is JUST another neurogaunt. Nothing special about it.

At least until the Codex drops. Hopefully Tyranid Warrior Prime will get some rules, maybe even Neurothrope (some extra rules) as well.
But yeh.

[bigbadbalou]

Trashcan, I read the rule the same as you. If you take only part of it, it seems to be really bad. But as a whole, considering slow rolling is the basic rule, and when the bodyguard models are destroyed, it could be ok.

As I read it, the unit is an "attached unit" only as long as there is a leader in a unit of bodyguard, period. Once there is no more bodyguard, the Leader is no longer an attached unit, its just a unit. Hence the attacks continues as normal with the leader's toughness since the attacking unit is not attacking an attached unit (but the last sentence enable the previously allocated attacks to go the the characters). The last sentence of the rule specify you can continue to allocate your remaining attacks on the leader. Not wounds, attacks (like, before determining the toughness of the target). That would be because fast rolling is not a rule, it's a shortcut to make some dice rolling faster. But the basis is you allocate all the attacks of the unit, and than roll one allocated attack after the other.

If not, there is so many things weird in the leader rule that doesn't make sense while considering fast rolling possible here. The use of singular for allocating attack would be one weird thing, since it clearly is singular in multiple places in that rule, and we are discussing it as a problem only if you consider all the attacks of a unit while fast rolling.
Another one would be when it says to use the toughness characteristic of the bodyguard models in that unit... i mean, once the bodyguard units are killed, there is no bodyguard models left in the unit, so you use which toughness? And it doesnt says to use the bodyguard toughness until all attacks are resolved, only that all the remaining attacks are to use the bodyguard's toughness... Which is different (first is get it at first attack and use it until the end of all attacks, while the second meaning is get it and use it when you actually do the remainging attacks).
Or the last sentence... why would it be there if you automatically allocate the wounds to the character once every bodyguard is dead? That sentence would be totally useless unless you roll each attacks one after the other. I think its to avoid stupid arguments like "it was an attached unit before and now is a normal unit, so its a different unit and you can't continue your attack which were allocated to the attached unit (stupid argument I think, be pretty sure if that sentence was not there it would be a thing). But if you consider only fast rolling, that last sentence would actually serves absolutely no purpose at all.

Of course, I could totally be wrong and GW make a FAQ confirming the contrary. But until than, I don't see why I would permit my adversary to fast roll (an optionnal rule) if that can only lead to my leader not using their thoughness to defend. Allocated all the attacking unit attacks's, than roll one attack at a time for an attached unit being attacked. But please do fast roll for a normal unit.

If anything, that rule is not super clear and might need clarification. But reading it considering fast rolling leads to way more confusion rather than considering normale rule / slow rolling where pretty much the whole rule start to make sense and be used as it should be (you know, bodyguard Helping).

Just for the LOL, imagine using the middle part of the rule : "Well, you want to fast roll? ok, it's your call. So you allocate all your attacks on the attached unit? It's okay or me, since you cannot allocate the wounds to a character that way. And since you have no attacks left "yet to be allocated" after the bodyguards are dead (yeah, you wanted to allocate them all on the attached unit to fast roll, remember?), my character cannot receive the wounds left, since only the attacks yet to be allocated can be allocated to him.
(it's mainly to joke about the confusion that can come from fast rolling this. It seems somewhat... weirdly possible, but that would be too much "that guy" for me. But i would defenitely push to slow roll thoses attacks sos everything runs smoothly)