Hormagaunt viability

[afewveiws]

Is the hormagaunt viable in large packs?
Or I guess a more specific question is has there been a top 5 winning Nid list that ran 1 or more h.gaunt unit(s) of 20+?

I only ask since most of my theory lists run 2 units of 25 of these guys with AG in kraken.
Now that Levi is under fire from GW, I figure some kraken lists have popped up by now.

[No One]

I don't think I've ever seen anything other than 10 mans in placing tournament lists.

[piersonsmuppet]

Horms are usually offensively run as 15x to keep Bounding Leap at 1 CP, either in Gorgon with SL and TS (this has won or placed a few events) or Behemoth with AG.

30x units aren’t usually run because it’s too much pts into 1 unit. Rarely do you need more than 15 to kill things, so the extra bodies mainly add wounds to a unit with no durability.

[afewveiws]

Wow, 15 h.gaunts is enough to kill a unit? Didn't know they were that effective in that small of a unit.

But how many turns do they have to weather? I think I can get 1 unit stuck in turn 1, terrain permitting. That's why I was thinking a large unit strictly to guarantee a dead unit and enough surviving bodies to reach out and touch multiple units with guns.
Maybe this is an out-dated strategy...

[dkng]

Nov 27, 2022 17:01:57 GMT afewveiws said:

Wow, 15 h.gaunts is enough to kill a unit? Didn't know they were that effective in that small of a unit.

But how many turns do they have to weather? I think I can get 1 unit stuck in turn 1, terrain permitting. That's why I was thinking a large unit strictly to guarantee a dead unit and enough surviving bodies to reach out and touch multiple units with guns.
Maybe this is an out-dated strategy...

They aren't by themselves. But with support they can be little mean killing machines. You need to overcome their weaknesses - WS, str and ap. First one is quite easy with HT rrs 1s or with DG wlt. The question is - are other units in your army going to benefit more? So this is where you theoretically need number of bodies(or Hydra but... don't do that). Str (well... the wound roll to be exact) is where Behemoth and Gorgon show up (or Hydra but... don't do that). With the PP, Behemoth Horms can wound T4 targets on 3s and T3 on 2s. Ap can upped with Kraken and Jorm.

The idea of throwing them at the enemy to gum up their works is not great unless you can make sure you make it to the opponent AND touch multiple units - the second part isnt difficult as they sport that sweet 6" pile in. Still, T3 and 5 sv mean even dedicated shooting units can beat them up in return and break the coherency. Remember, without Synapse to back them up, Ld 5 mean 4 of them dead and you need a 1 to not break. And I'd say this is one of two main issues - it's so difficult to babysit them. Second main issue is the price for wound you pay - 8 points is just too much. One or two small units as screens and objective grabbers are fine but more of them make your army point/wound inefficient.

[afewveiws]

Well with the above, I'm assuming you don't think AG is worth the points on them then?

Being able to travel 23" and still being able to charge seems really good on t1. Especially in an objective scoring game. They'll have to deal with them early which should allow you to get more board control then they can and get a lead in points...

Well ... I'll return with a list and strat, let's see how many holes can be poked into it. Lol

[dkng]

Nov 27, 2022 19:38:15 GMT afewveiws said:

Well with the above, I'm assuming you don't think AG is worth the points on them then?

Being able to travel 23" and still being able to charge seems really good on t1. Especially in an objective scoring game. They'll have to deal with them early which should allow you to get more board control then they can and get a lead in points...

Well ... I'll return with a list and strat, let's see how many holes can be poked into it. Lol

23"? 10 base, up to 6 advance from strat, 1 from AG and (they love 2" boost from Tervi SI). So it seems you're counting in the pregame move Adaptive Trait but it's going to be "move 23" only 50% of the time - not something too reliable. If you go second it's quite easy for the opponent to screen them.

[afewveiws]

It's not 50% of the time. You can move 23" in the first game round regardless of weather you go first or not. It's just a very unsafe deployment and the first 6" move is before your opponents turn 50% of the time and then there's a chance the enemy then dedicates some shooting into them... That's a risk that any turn 1 blitz strat will have to face, but then again that also means the rest of your army is closer to the enemy and you'll likely get more into the enemy then you would have if you went first and you'd have more cp to use else where since those 6" don't matter anymore.

[afewveiws]

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [95 PL, 3CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Game Type: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim

Hive Fleet: (Hunt) Synaptic Goading, Kraken

+ Stratagems +

Hive Predator [-2CP]: 2x Extra Warlord Trait

Relic [-1CP]

+ No Force Org Slot +

Tyranid Prime [5 PL, 90pts]: Adrenal Glands, Lash Whip and Bonesword, Venom Cannon, Warlord Trait: Direct Guidance

Tyrant Guard [8 PL, 120pts]
. 3x Tyrant Guard (Scything): 3x Two Rending Claws, 3x Two Scything Talons

Zoanthropes [7 PL, 150pts]: Power: Neuroparasite, Power: Synaptic Lure, 3x Zoanthrope

+ HQ +

Hive Tyrant [9 PL, 210pts]: Adrenal Glands, Heavy Venom Cannon, Lash Whip and Monstrous Bonesword, Power: Paroxysm, Power: Catalyst Power: Synaptic Lure, Relic: Shardgullet, Warlord

Neurothrope [5 PL, 100pts]: Power: Catalyst, Power: Onslaught, Warlord Trait: One Step Ahead

+ Troops +

Gargoyles [4 PL, 80pts]
. 10x Gargoyle: 10x Fleshborer

Gargoyles [4 PL, 80pts]
. 10x Gargoyle: 10x Fleshborer

Hormagaunts [12 PL, 250pts]: Adrenal Glands
. 25x Hormagaunt: 25x Hormagaunt Talons

Tyranid Warriors [8 PL, 205pts]: Adrenal Glands
. 4xTyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Dual Boneswords
. 2xTyranid Warrior: Dual Boneswords, Venom Cannon

+ Fast Attack +

Raveners [8 PL, 210pts]
6x Ravener: Deathspitter, Two Scything Talons

Trygon [8 PL, 160pts]: Adrenal Glands, Biostatic Rattle

+ Heavy Support +

Biovores [3 PL, 45pts]: Biovore

Carnifexes [14 PL, 300pts]
. 2x Carnifex: Enhanced Senses, Heavy Venom Cannon, Spore Cysts, Two Carnifex Scything Talons


++ Total: [95 PL, 3CP, 2,000pts] ++

Main idea is turn 1 blitz in the hormies, pop the raveners, trygon, and warriors out of the ground near enough the enemy to fire, and aim tyrant and carni twins at a thick target... Plus the prime I guess....
Any way, turn 1 could include upto:
Shots
-58 Str5 d1
-3d3 str8 d2
-6 str9 d4
-3 str12 d5
Attacks
-75 str4 d1
-42 str5 d1
-36 str8 d2

Not sure on psychic ranges but those might do damage t1 but ... What ever, I'll be mostly using them to buff and debuff what I can. Oh yeah and the biovore will more then likely put down some spores or try to score, so not likely going to shoot.


Obviously if I go second I will be having to adapt my strategy but that should go without saying. Most likely the gaunts will end up being a bullet sponge since 6" won't be far enough to hide the whole unit but even just getting any cover or LOS blocking on even 5 dudes would be enough to have another scoring unit that can maybe recover it's number for end game pushes. The rest of the plan still happens close to the same except probably more spread out since the enemy has already moved. The gargoyles could go in reserves to drop in on objectives but the 6" pregame move with their natural speed makes me want to start them on the board, then they can contest almost guaranteed, provided they didn't get LOS to the gargs and wiped them...

Beyond that every game boils down to responding to and applying pressure while scoring as much as possible.

Edit: forgot about no deep strike turn 1 with out a pod so nevermind this list.

[piersonsmuppet]

Nov 27, 2022 20:06:12 GMT afewveiws said:

It's not 50% of the time. You can move 23" in the first game round regardless of weather you go first or not. It's just a very unsafe deployment and the first 6" move is before your opponents turn 50% of the time and then there's a chance the enemy then dedicates some shooting into them... That's a risk that any turn 1 blitz strat will have to face, but then again that also means the rest of your army is closer to the enemy and you'll likely get more into the enemy then you would have if you went first and you'd have more cp to use else where since those 6" don't matter anymore.

Blitz strats have been pretty poor since the change letting the second player score end of T5, it is too easy for the opponent to dictate what you engage so that they can trade up (which will happen a lot vs a 30-man Horm unit). Then after they win trades T1-3, they focus on outscoring.

15-man units work well in Gorgon or Behemoth not because they can wipe units through a T1 blitz, they are used as mobile trade pieces for mid-board. A 16/17" Mv means you can keep them behind obscuring until a prime target is in range, and they are likely hitting a smite or shooting weakened target. They don't even really need to kill most times, just weaken the target enough so that they claim the objective and force the opponent to bring another unit in to deal with them.

[afewveiws]

When do they know they are going first or second? And how could they have control over my trade rate when I'm planning on more then half of my models on or past their deployment line by the end of turn 1. There is no battle for middle of the board, they wipe me in their deployment zone or I "control" the middle. If I go second then I would have the turn 2 advantage of deciding game pacing and a slightly more cautious game plan would be used...

[piersonsmuppet]

Nov 27, 2022 21:16:17 GMT afewveiws said:

When do they know they are going first or second? And how could they have control over my trade rate when I'm planning on more then half of my models on or past their deployment line by the end of turn 1. There is no battle for middle of the board, they wipe me in their deployment zone or I "control" the middle. If I go second then I would have the turn 2 advantage of deciding game pacing and a slightly more cautious game plan would be used...

Well... they see your army, know kraken has reach, and just deploy for if you go first. Yes, you get half your models (realistically only 1-2 units) past thier deployment line T1 and kill 100-200 points of units. Then their entire army wipes up your Horms and Ravs for a 200-450 pt trade.

Now, it's not going to be bad; you just will lose trades with the big horm unit (or any big unit really) most times. Against a skilled opponent, losing too many trades will cause the game to slip away since Nids don't have easy secondaries.

[afewveiws]

Very well.