Shooting through walls?

[exeteroborach]

Hey everybody.
So I'm playing a game with a friend and we're using a lot of ruined buildings. He's telling me that the rules for ruins has been updated and now allows models that are in a ruin, behind a solid wall with no line of sight can be shot and shoot back because of assumed windows, cracks etc. The core book says to use LOS still. I heard the new ITC rules include a rule to allow this but is this an official GW rule to use in pick up games? If so can you tell me where to read it?
Thanks.

[arsonfire]

GW haven't made any changes to ruins or the obscuring rule that alter the line of sight rules like that.
Their only recent change to the obscuring rule was one that adds +1 to engagement range to models fighting across an obscuring terrain piece. But that has nothing to do with line of sight or shooting, it only affects melee range.

So you should still use true line of sight when shooting in/out of ruins. No assumed windows.

I don't follow ITC all that closely, so I can't say if they've added anything along these lines to their missions. but there's nothing like this from GW.

[exeteroborach]

He's saying it's in the current GT book which we don't have so I'm telling him to show me. He said its being talked about in all the major batreps and that they know their stuff. Not a valid argument I know.

[yoritomo]

First off, you’d be surprised how often battle reports get things wrong. Especially with newer rules or codices.

You play with the rules you have, not with the rules you think other players are playing with. If your friends can’t point out the rule in print then you don’t use it. If your friend wants to get the new campaign book so he can find the new rule and point it out to you that’s on him.

I would like to point out that the point of the game is to have fun. You guys should save sharpshooting the rules for your next tournament.

[arsonfire]

I've just had a flip through my copy of the Nephilim GT book, and had a browse through goonhammer articles. I've found exactly nothing that alters ruin or line of sight rules in the way your friend describes, and I've also seen zero discussion about it elsewhere.
I'm not sure what battle reports your friend has been watching, but I'm fairly confident they are mistaken.

The thing that 'has' had a bit of recent discussion is the engagement range change across obscuring terrain that I mentioned earlier. As the rule GW added is a bit broken, and a bunch of people have been complaining that it's worse than the problem it tries to solve. My best guess is that your friend has mixed up that discussion about fighting through ruin walls, and thought they were talking about shooting through them.

[exeteroborach]

I think you guys are right. I heard that the new 'charge a guy through a wall if he's within 1" of it" sucks because the target still can't fire overwatch which would suggest that it can't be shot/shoot in the shooting phase.
Thanks for the responses. I appreciate you taking the time to look stuff up.

[No One]

...No player who knows their stuff (as I'd expect at a major) plays like that. That's not how the rules work, and they've very clearly not worked like that for...essentially the entire edition. So your opponent is either just lying, or doesn't understand what's happening properly. Either way, that's why you use actual rules.

BRB said:

Obscuring
If this terrain feature is at least 5" in height, then models cannot see through or over this terrain feature. This means that one model is not visible to another if you cannot draw a straight line, 1mm in thickness, between them without it passing through or over any part of this terrain feature. The height of a terrain feature is measured from the highest point on that terrain feature.

Models that are on or within this terrain feature can see, and can be seen and targeted normally. AIRCRAFT models, and models with a Wounds (W) characteristic of 18 or more, are visible and can be targeted even if this terrain feature is in-between it and the firing model (note that the reverse is not true).

While a model is within 1" of an Area Terrain feature with this trait (e.g. Ruins) and the shortestline between it and an enemy model crosses over or through this terrain feature, then while those models are within 2" horizontally and 5" vertically of each other, they are within Engagement Range of each other.

Note 'normally': you normally require visibility.

FAQ said:

Obscuring and Dense Cover
Obscuring and Dense Cover are two terrain traits introduced with ninth edition that interact with visibility. These rules do not overwrite the normal rules for determining visibility, though - they are in addition to them. Specifically, even though the Obscuring rules state that AIRCRAFT and models with a Wounds characteristic of 18+ can be seen through Obscuring terrain, they are still only visible (and hence eligible) targets if the firing model can physically see them (so if the terrain in question is solid and opaque, they are still not eligible targets). Also, in the same way that Obscuring terrain ‘blocks’ visibility when it is in between the firing model and its intended target, Dense Cover terrain imposes a hit penalty whenever it is between the firing model and its intended target (with the noted exceptions). It is not required for a unit to be fulfilling the criteria of ‘gaining the benefits of cover’, as described for Obstacles and Area Terrain, for this penalty to hit rolls to apply (but also note that any rule that ignores the benefits of cover, or that ignores the benefits of cover that impose a penalty on hit rolls, would still ignore that penalty).

[infornography]

This part of the rule

Models that are on or within this terrain feature can see, and can be seen and targeted normally.

I remember when it was originally leaked this was misinterpreted for a bit the way your friend seems to think. It was relatively quickly determined that the word normally did not mean to completely disregard the terrain they are in, but to rely on the normal lines of sight rule. I suspect this is what is tripping him up.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

I have seen this house ruled. Generally in my area, we've been playing "office building rules": you can shoot into or out of ruins freely but not through them.