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Post by antisequitur on Jul 28, 2022 4:18:34 GMT
1) Tervigon - Wall of Flesh
As written:
"if that unit contains 15 or more models and is closer to any enemy models than this model [...]"
This wording sounds like as long as there's at least one enemy model that the termagants are closer to than the Tervigon, Tervi gets Look Out, Sir. Looking at comparable rules would seem to support this. Am I missing something here?
2) Gorgon Warlord Trait - Lethal Miasma
"At the start of the Fight phase, roll one D6 for each enemy unit within 3" of this WARLORD: on a 2-5, that enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound; on a 6, that enemy unit suffers D3 mortal wounds."
At the start of "*the* Fight phase", not "*your* Fight phase", makes it sound like this goes off on both your and your opponent's fight phases. Is this interpretation correct?
Apologies if these are stupid questions. Longtime hobbyist, finally scratching the itch to play, and boy am I realizing why all my player friends were constantly irritated.
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Post by No One on Jul 28, 2022 5:23:38 GMT
1) Tervigon - Wall of Flesh As written: "if that unit contains 15 or more models and is closer to any enemy models than this model [...]" This wording sounds like as long as there's at least one enemy model that the termagants are closer to than the Tervigon, Tervi gets Look Out, Sir. Looking at comparable rules would seem to support this. Am I missing something here? OK, terv is just a mess: the original rule was essentially worse LoS, i.e. the terms needed to be closer to the shooting model. Compared to all other bodyguard rules, which didn't care. GW then "updated" the rule to use LoS, but did it in a way that just doesn't work (i.e. replacing rules text that the terv doesn't have, with rules text that doesn't work), forgot that it's actually the terv that had the rule, and generally just made a mess of it. But yes, taking it with the least amount of finagling, if the terms are closer to any enemy models, the terv gets LoS and can thus be protected by things that aren't the terms. Yes. |
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Post by turtletyrant on Jul 28, 2022 19:13:40 GMT
1) Tervigon - Wall of Flesh As written: "if that unit contains 15 or more models and is closer to any enemy models than this model [...]" This wording sounds like as long as there's at least one enemy model that the termagants are closer to than the Tervigon, Tervi gets Look Out, Sir. Looking at comparable rules would seem to support this. Am I missing something here? 2) Gorgon Warlord Trait - Lethal Miasma "At the start of the Fight phase, roll one D6 for each enemy unit within 3" of this WARLORD: on a 2-5, that enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound; on a 6, that enemy unit suffers D3 mortal wounds." At the start of "*the* Fight phase", not "*your* Fight phase", makes it sound like this goes off on both your and your opponent's fight phases. Is this interpretation correct? Apologies if these are stupid questions. Longtime hobbyist, finally scratching the itch to play, and boy am I realizing why all my player friends were constantly irritated.
1. the termagants must be within 1" of tervigon for him to be ABLE to use the LoS rule, that being said, all other rules regarding look out sir still apply, so the tervigon can still be targeted if he is closer to any units (if for example you are surrounded on both sides and the termagants only cover one side).
2. Yes, this rule is resolved before any other attacks are made by any unit and apply on both your turn and the enemies. |
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Post by antisequitur on Jul 29, 2022 2:02:43 GMT
Thanks for the replies. My Tervigon question isn't quite answered, though-- sorry for not being specific here. Two more sub-questions here.
1) The wording would imply that, as long as there is AT LEAST ONE enemy unit that the termagants are closer to than the Tervigon, she gets Look Out, Sir.
E.g. if there is one single unit that is closer to the gants, even if every other unit is closer to the Tervigon, she still gets Look Out, Sir against all ranged enemy attacks. (As long as there is another unit between the attacker and her, which ties into question 2.)
2) She also can select units other than the 15+ Termagant unit to bodyguard for her, as long as they meet the LOS unit requirements.
I think both of these are correct, but I'm not 100% sure-- I might be missing something.
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Post by No One on Jul 29, 2022 2:21:07 GMT
1) The wording would imply that, as long as there is AT LEAST ONE enemy unit that the termagants are closer to than the Tervigon, she gets Look Out, Sir. E.g. if there is one single unit that is closer to the gants, even if every other unit is closer to the Tervigon, she still gets Look Out, Sir against all ranged enemy attacks. (As long as there is another unit between the attacker and her, which ties into question 2.) Literally RAW, the bodyguard change does nothing to the terv because it tells you to replace rules text she doesn't have, with rules text that doesn't work for her (i.e. it's written assuming the bodyguard has the rule, not the one being protected). Assuming it is actually supposed to replace things and actually work, the minimal amount of wording tweaks would result in this, yes. Unit X can prevent her being shot provided she meets the requirements to get LoS from the terms, and unit X is closer to the shooting unit than the terv. There is no selecting, and bodyguard is the rules term referred to this entire thing, so either don't use that, or most definitely not. |
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Jul 29, 2022 4:05:57 GMT
If you have any units that are closer than the Tervigon and visible to the shooting unit while the Termagant unit has 15 models, is w/in 1” of the Tervigon, and the Termagant unit is closer to any enemy unit than the Tervigon, the Tervigon has Look Out Sir and can’t be targeted.
The “Termagants closer to” clause could probably be removed to make it more in-line with other bodyguard rules and less confusing. The Terms are usually front-line to screen the Tervigon from charges anyway.
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Post by No One on Jul 29, 2022 4:47:06 GMT
The “Termagants closer to” clause could probably be removed to make it more in-line with other bodyguard rules and less confusing. Yeah, it should either be removed entirely or made actually relevant (i.e. closer to the shooting unit). But GW didn't even remember/check who had the rule, so I doubt they're going to notice (or care if pointed out) that it doesn't really make sense in context. |
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Post by turtletyrant on Jul 29, 2022 16:39:36 GMT
Thanks for the replies. My Tervigon question isn't quite answered, though-- sorry for not being specific here. Two more sub-questions here. 1) The wording would imply that, as long as there is AT LEAST ONE enemy unit that the termagants are closer to than the Tervigon, she gets Look Out, Sir. E.g. if there is one single unit that is closer to the gants, even if every other unit is closer to the Tervigon, she still gets Look Out, Sir against all ranged enemy attacks. (As long as there is another unit between the attacker and her, which ties into question 2.) 2) She also can select units other than the 15+ Termagant unit to bodyguard for her, as long as they meet the LOS unit requirements. I think both of these are correct, but I'm not 100% sure-- I might be missing something. 1.If we take your example.. the gaunts would only protect against the ONE unit that they are closer to.. against that unit tervigon can use look out sir..against other units that are closer to the tervigon, it CAN NOT use look out sir, because it says so in the rule.. 2. No, you do not select units for look out sir.. the enemy simply can not shoot at the tervigon and must select ANY other viable target such as the termagants OR any other unit.. you yourself do not select the targets.. |
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Jul 29, 2022 17:31:06 GMT
1.If we take your example.. the gaunts would only protect against the ONE unit that they are closer to.. against that unit tervigon can use look out sir..against other units that are closer to the tervigon, it CAN NOT use look out sir, because it says so in the rule. The Tervigon gains Look Out Sir vs all shooting if the Terms are closer to a single enemy unit. So it gets protection from any shooting unit as long as another friendly unit is closer and visible to the shooting unit. Note for Wall of Flesh, the Termagants do not have to be visible to the single enemy unit they are closer to, so the Tervigon can have Look Out Sir, be receiving no Look Out Sir protection from the Terms themselves, and still not be a legal target. |
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Post by turtletyrant on Jul 29, 2022 18:15:25 GMT
1.If we take your example.. the gaunts would only protect against the ONE unit that they are closer to.. against that unit tervigon can use look out sir..against other units that are closer to the tervigon, it CAN NOT use look out sir, because it says so in the rule. The Tervigon gains Look Out Sir vs all shooting if the Terms are closer to a single enemy unit. So it gets protection from any shooting unit as long as another friendly unit is closer and visible to the shooting unit. Note for Wall of Flesh, the Termagants do not have to be visible to the single enemy unit they are closer to, so the Tervigon can have Look Out Sir, be receiving no Look Out Sir protection from the Terms themselves, and still not be a legal target.
Yes but if the termagants are all in front of tervigon, and an enemy unit is behind the tervigon (so that there are NO termagants closer to the enemy unit), per LoS rule, the tervigon can not use the rule against that specific enemy unit.
the Wall of flesh rule says he can use the LoS rule, hence the conditions of the rule still apply; In all cases, if that CHARACTER unit is both visible to the firing model and it is the closest enemy unit to the firing model, it can be targeted normally |
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Jul 29, 2022 19:06:00 GMT
The Tervigon doesn’t have to use the Terms for Look Out Sir, the Terms just give Look Out Sir rule to the Tervigon. Look Out Sir lets any friendly model protect a character as long as they meet the nearby unit clause (15 terms w/in 1” for the Tervigon).
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Post by turtletyrant on Jul 29, 2022 19:41:32 GMT
The Tervigon doesn’t have to use the Terms for Look Out Sir, the Terms just give Look Out Sir rule to the Tervigon. Look Out Sir lets any friendly model protect a character as long as they meet the nearby unit clause (15 terms w/in 1” for the Tervigon).
I think we have a bit of a misunderstanding, we are talking about different things.. You are talking about the wording of Wall of flesh, allowing any unit to protect the tervigon (though i assume they didn't plan on that, but the wording still implies it).. as long as they meet the LoS conditions (3 models or 1 monster) and the condition of wall of flesh is met (15 termagants)...
and i am talking about the discussion that the tervigon is protected against all ranged attacks, which is not the case, because the LoS rule still allows tervigon to be targeted if he is the closest to the shooter.
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Post by No One on Jul 30, 2022 1:06:23 GMT
...Do you know how LoS works? If you meet the criteria (in this case, within 1" of terms and those terms are closer to any unit), you cannot be shot if the shooter is closer to any friendly unit (ignoring <10 wound Chars). If the terms are closer to an enemy unit and thus giving the terv LoS, if a unit behind the terv and not closer to the terms, but is closer to e.g. warriors, they can't shoot the terv, because that's how LoS works. You could add stuff and change the wording so that it works the same as it used to (that being only if the terms are closer to the firing unit), or ignore the entire thing because GW's wording is garbage, but as I've said repeatedly, taking the assumption that you're replacing stuff in a manner that works as given because GW have explicitly said as much, the wording change that doesn't require jumping through more hoops results in this scenario. To quote waha on what this would look like: You replace the bit about 'those enemy models cannot target this Character with ranged attacks' with 'this Character unit can use the Look Out, Sir rule even if this unit contains fewer than 3 models' (vs the actually stated replacement, which is 'enemy models cannot target that Character unit with ranged attacks' with 'that Character unit can use the Look Out, Sir rule even if this unit contains fewer than 3 models.').
Edit: Heck, you could argue that the terms don't need to be closer than any enemy units based on this: (Of course technically RAW that doesn't work, because silly GW the terv has the ability, but ignore that).
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