Tactics against Orks and Eldar Aeldari

[HiveTyrant1978]

Hi all I’m an old school player but new to ninth due to circumstances out of my control, I’ve picked up the new codex and have been diving in.

I was would about how to handle an orc whagg rush and there almost ridiculous amount of shots that they can bring

Also some advice against aelderi (eldar) blade storm
A player I was going up against was us a craftwork’s that had it proc of the to hit roll and on the to wound roll. Now he did roll high and he was averaging 11 procs on the to hit roll with thirty dice
It was pretty damn obnoxious

So are there any tips and trick to shut this type of nonsense down with nids

[hivefleetkerrigan]

I haven't faced the new eldar, but to counter ork shooting, venomthropes are very good. The -1 to hit means that the orks will only be hitting on 6s instead of 5s.

[piersonsmuppet]

Hail of Doom is looking to mostly ignore the Hit/Wound phases. So, you’ve got to focus on the making attacks steps after wounding; saves and FnPs.

For saves, Leviathan’s power can be used to grant Core a 5++ every turn and heavily negates the AP-3 on their 6’s. Natural Camouflage in hive fleets with access to Lurk grants an additional +1 to-save in cover and is capable of mitigating the AP on multiple units per turn. Spore Cysts and BL imperative are also lesser things to provide protection.

Outside of that, Catalyst and Adaptive Biology to ignore damage. Better used in bugs without Invuls, but stacking Catalyst and Zoan/BL imperative can make a unit very tough to shift.

[HiveTyrant1978]

Excellent I’ve been falling in love with gorgon which has access to lurk this making me love them even more. I also tend to go carnifex heavy which if I’m not mistaken really combos well with spore cysts. I do run malanthropes regularly, at least one in ever list so they will be hanging out with my units.

[kazetanade]

Lurk +1sv is only if you're actually in terrain (jorm doesn't trigger) and only infantry (carnifex can't benefit)

[HiveTyrant1978]

Just read the terrain feature part which does kill the spore cyst combo


I had figured jormungandr wouldn’t trigger it, jormungandr provides dense cover not light

[piersonsmuppet]

Dense cover still provides the benefits of cover for other rules to trigger off of. Monsters can use Dense to gain +1Sv from Natural Camo (still needs to be from terrain).

[No One]

kazetanade said:

Lurk +1sv is only if you're actually in terrain (jorm doesn't trigger) and only infantry (carnifex can't benefit)

Naturalised Camouflage

Each time a ranged attack is allocated to a model with this Adaptation while it is receiving the benefits of cover from a terrain feature, add an additional 1 to any armour saving throw made against that attack.

It's not specific, MCs just...can't get the benefits of cover from terrain. But rippers can .

piersonsmuppet said:

Dense cover still provides the benefits of cover for other rules to trigger off of. Monsters can use Dense to gain +1Sv from Natural Camo (still needs to be from terrain).

Not sure I agree with this:

INFANTRY, BEAST and SWARM models receive the benefits of cover from Area Terrain features while they are within it.

(And of course similar for obstacles)

It is not required for a unit to be fulfilling the criteria of ‘gaining the benefits of cover’, as described for Obstacles and Area Terrain, for this penalty to hit rolls to apply (but also note that any rule that ignores the benefits of cover, or that ignores the benefits of cover that impose a penalty on hit rolls, would still ignore that penalty).

So they're not receiving the benefits of cover as previously described, but it can be ignored by abilities that ignore the benefits of cover. Which I'd take as not getting the benefits of cover, just getting dense, which is ignored by other abilities because it says it is.

[piersonsmuppet]

Dense is called out as a benefit of cover in the Rare rules, and doesn’t require a unit be inside or near terrain like Light/Heavy cover. As to why; Area/Obstacle terrain grant the benefit of cover and Light/Heavy cover give the Sv bonus to models which are granted the benefits of cover. Dense doles out its benefit of cover differently (otherwise Vehicles/Monsters would never benefit).

A unit has to be receiving the benefits of cover to ignore the benefits of cover. Dense grants the unit the benefit of cover when attacks are made against it, which lasts until attacks are resolved. Nat Camo is triggered in the Allocate attacks step, after the benefits of cover are gained for attack resolution.

So either Dense is a benefit of cover; triggering Nat Camo and can be ignored, or it isn’t; not triggering Nat Camo and can’t be ignored. As I said earlier, rare rules point to the former.

Edit: There is also the “Terrain and Cover” section under “Saving Throws” in the Core Rules. That specifically says a unit receiving any bonus from terrain is considered as receiving the benefits of cover.

[bigbadbalou]

Piersonsmuppet, master of the rare rules, strikes again!