Hive Guards anyone?

[wormlord666]

Ok, I am preparing for a game against hail of doom eldar. Started looking at Hiveguard again even though I placed them in the back of the shelf. Hear me out: I play Kronos so the short range is at least 4” better. I have lots of synapse to help with spotting.
I mean S6, -2 and 2 dmg kills a lot of swooping hawks, direavengers and bikes. Fire and fade all you want…

I will try without them first, but mayby it was to early to declare them dead…

[infornography]

so... you are saying you struggle to deal damage to T3 and 4 targets? I am pretty sure there are more point efficient ways of killing those other than hiveguard...

[piersonsmuppet]

To counter fire and fade T3 3+/4++, they look good honestly. However, I’m not sure it counters how bad they are into more durable factions.

[infornography]

Maybe I am missing something...
For 360 points you get 18 shots, 12 hits, 10 wounds into T3, 5 failed saves. That is pretty expensive to deal 5 kills to T3 models.
against bikes you are looking at 18 shots, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 4 failed saves. Against windriders and shining spears that is okay since a failed save means a kill most of the time, but against the ones with 3 wounds, it is pretty unattractive. And still atrociously expensive for the job. This is of course devoid of most stratagems and bonuses.

[piersonsmuppet]

I think the OP was looking at effective Kronos answers to Fire and Fade, in which case all our efficient answers will often be ineffective (can't shoot at what you can't see). HG will always have a level of effectiveness into them, but the efficiency is terrible. Just depends on what you want/need, though usually efficiency trumps effect.

Realistically, Horms with AG will be one our best efficiency:effectiveness answers to Fire & Fade T3 in any hive fleet with 17" Advance and charge. Raveners are a close second, though probably being better in Kraken. Though if the OP doesn't want to play those, HG become better by virtue of circumstance.

[yoritomo]

Do we have an attractive option against fire and fade? We aren’t exactly swimming in long range weapons that can hit them from odd angles. And the ones we do have I would rather be shooting at things that aren’t T3/T4.

Hive guard are certainly not a top tier unit anymore, but they do offer something that nothing else in our codex does. It may not be wise to dismiss them without doing our due diligence.

*edit: dang, ninja’d*

[Master Chief]

Does any army have a good answer to fire and fade?

Harpies (specially if Leviathan) might be amazing against those eldar bikes, but like Yoritomo said, you don't really want those 6 HVCs shooting onto T4.

[wormlord666]

May 4, 2022 21:15:03 GMT infornography said:

so... you are saying you struggle to deal damage to T3 and 4 targets? I am pretty sure there are more point efficient ways of killing those other than hiveguard...

The struggle is to kill them after they teleport away, battlefocusmoves away or to kill the first turn when they hide. Otherwise of course yor are right, if they just stand i front of me I could deathspitt them, claw them to death och acidspray them. 

This idea eith HG will probably not fly, but again, mayby there is a build for them still, I mean they would be one of the very few indirect shooters so peaople have stopped preparing for that...

... and i have 12 just sitting there looking down from  the shelf...

[infornography]

If they cost substantially fewer points, I could definitely see the role for them here, but we are talking a sixth of a 2k point army for one unit that probably won't even remove the whole threat in a turn and isn't really of much use in any other circumstance.

I see what you are saying but my counter is that for those points you could take 36 AG Horms, 12 raveners, or 45 gargs. Any one of which could be split into several units for board coverage and put a hurt into those units. All of those units are fast and effective even if I feel Horms in particular are a bit overcosted, they are far less overcosted than Hiveguard. I think Gargs may actually be the best of the bunch for this though. They are fast, can provide GREAT board coverage, and deal a lot of damage at range without sacrificing their ability to harass the unit in melee. Besides, hiveguard still require synapse line of sight to even shoot indirect now. most of our synapse that could provide that line of sight could also put a hurt on that unit at range.

Gargs are pretty cool now that they are obsec. Yeah, they aren't hiding from LOS, but they are fast, obsec, have decent ranged firepower, and in melee can really cause issues for enemies wanting to hit them back. They can thin an enemy on an objective, engage them, and then just outnumber them while they swing and miss back.

[wormlord666]

May 5, 2022 13:25:39 GMT infornography said:

If they cost substantially fewer points, I could definitely see the role for them here, but we are talking a sixth of a 2k point army for one unit that probably won't even remove the whole threat in a turn and isn't really of much use in any other circumstance.

I see what you are saying but my counter is that for those points you could take 36 AG Horms, 12 raveners, or 45 gargs. Any one of which could be split into several units for board coverage and put a hurt into those units. All of those units are fast and effective even if I feel Horms in particular are a bit overcosted, they are far less overcosted than Hiveguard. I think Gargs may actually be the best of the bunch for this though. They are fast, can provide GREAT board coverage, and deal a lot of damage at range without sacrificing their ability to harass the unit in melee. Besides, hiveguard still require synapse line of sight to even shoot indirect now. most of our synapse that could provide that line of sight could also put a hurt on that unit at range.

Gargs are pretty cool now that they are obsec. Yeah, they aren't hiding from LOS, but they are fast, obsec, have decent ranged firepower, and in melee can really cause issues for enemies wanting to hit them back. They can thin an enemy on an objective, engage them, and then just outnumber them while they swing and miss back.

I hear you. Against the hail of doom list the HG might be somewhat less unusable, but otherwise it is not good enough for their points. I miss the option of forcing stuff out. I’ll have to work something out. Horms, gargs, harpys and shooty fexes from reserves are possible options.

[zimko]

What is the 'Hail of Doom' list?

[wormlord666]

May 5, 2022 19:40:25 GMT zimko said:

What is the 'Hail of Doom' list?

Hail of doom is a trait in eldar codex. That makes Shuriken weapons autowound on 6 to hit and also makes those 6`s rend with ap -3.
So they spam Shuriken weapons. Bikes, direavangers, and swooping hawks. They all shoot a lot and have Watson to get rerolls and then to fire and Fade away. Nick Nanavanti won Dallas open with his version of it.
It is fast, hardhitting and hard to get to and scores high.