When are mortal wounds assigned with reaper?

[grave77digger]

Reaper of Obliterax... When does the unit take the mortal wounds before or after the roll saves and take normal damage?

[piersonsmuppet]

After all attacks have resolved their normal damage. Say you get 3 successful wound rolls followed by two failed saves, the target would take 6 normal damage and all damage would need to be assigned. Then after all normal damage is resolved, you would assign the 3 MWs.

[bigbadbalou]

Hmmmm... interesting question. Although i'm not sure when or how it could make a difference?

Technically, you make an attack with the reaper, which proc the "can't ignore the wounds it loses" to the model you attack (weird that it says allocated to an enemy model and not an enemy unit, since you normally allocate the wounds to a model, but the attacks to a unit... meh, I probably read too much about it for this part, since the damage of the weapon is ultimately allocated to the model attacked by it since a weapon's damage never overflow to other models... But if the MW are allocated to another model by overflow, could that model then use a fnp ability to avoid it since he was not the model attacked? Maybe that's another question though...).

Then roll to hit. Then roll to wounds and if you wounds, the target ("target" is important here, since its not longer just for the model you attack) of the attack suffer 1 additional MW. So you "pass" whatever the damage you are doing with the weapon, + 1 MW. Normally, the opponent chooses where the wounds are allocated and saves for them if he can...

Ok yeah, I think I get where you are going. If the MW are allocated first, the opponent could decide to get the MW on a multiwound model first, and then kill the model with the dmg of the attack itself. Thus lowering the total damage received, instead of having the normal damage done first (which could kill the model?) and have the MW allocated to another model in the same unit... Hmmmmmm...

I would say, since the wounds are allocated by the opponent, yeah he could decide to allocate MW first to lower the damage received in this case. I think that would be by the rule. The only exception would be if there is a rule saying that MW are taken after all other source of damage has been allocated. But I'm not sure such a rule exist...

Interesting point I didn't realized first, how would all this plays out if you wounds multiple time causing more than 1 MW. Rolling 1 attack after the other could really change the outcome of the damage.
Like, if you fast roll, and let's pretend you wounds 3 times with monstrous bonesword (and opponent fail all saves) on 4 wounds models. Fast rolling, the opponent could allocate 3 MW on the first model, and the 3 other attacks (3D each) after those, for a total of 2 model killed. Or if you are rolling one attack at a time, which would basically get 4 damage per attack (3D + 1MW), that would make up for a total of 3 model killed... That's still 4 damage difference between both ways?? Can someone double check that please? That seems not right...

[Jbizzy]

Mortal wounds are applied after normal damage only. It's part of the core rules of mortal wounds.

[piersonsmuppet]

Apr 28, 2022 17:28:36 GMT bigbadbalou said:

Hmmmm... interesting question. Although i'm not sure when or how it could make a difference?

Technically, you make an attack with the reaper, which proc the "can't ignore the wounds it loses" to the model you attack (weird that it says allocated to an enemy model and not an enemy unit, since you normally allocate the wounds to a model, but the attacks to a unit... meh, I probably read too much about it for this part, since the damage of the weapon is ultimately allocated to the model attacked by it since a weapon's damage never overflow to other models... But if the MW are allocated to another model by overflow, could that model then use a fnp ability to avoid it since he was not the model attacked? Maybe that's another question though...).

Then roll to hit. Then roll to wounds and if you wounds, the target ("target" is important here, since its not longer just for the model you attack) of the attack suffer 1 additional MW. So you "pass" whatever the damage you are doing with the weapon, + 1 MW. Normally, the opponent chooses where the wounds are allocated and saves for them if he can...

Ok yeah, I think I get where you are going. If the MW are allocated first, the opponent could decide to get the MW on a multiwound model first, and then kill the model with the dmg of the attack itself. Thus lowering the total damage received, instead of having the normal damage done first (which could kill the model?) and have the MW allocated to another model in the same unit... Hmmmmmm...

I would say, since the wounds are allocated by the opponent, yeah he could decide to allocate MW first to lower the damage received in this case. I think that would be by the rule. The only exception would be if there is a rule saying that MW are taken after all other source of damage has been allocated. But I'm not sure such a rule exist...

Interesting point I didn't realized first, how would all this plays out if you wounds multiple time causing more than 1 MW. Rolling 1 attack after the other could really change the outcome of the damage.
Like, if you fast roll, and let's pretend you wounds 3 times with monstrous bonesword (and opponent fail all saves) on 4 wounds models. Fast rolling, the opponent could allocate 3 MW on the first model, and the 3 other attacks (3D each) after those, for a total of 2 model killed. Or if you are rolling one attack at a time, which would basically get 4 damage per attack (3D + 1MW), that would make up for a total of 3 model killed... That's still 4 damage difference between both ways?? Can someone double check that please? That seems not right...

Neither method is correct, reference “Multiple attacks that inflict mortal wounds” in the rare rules section.

[bigbadbalou]

Apr 28, 2022 17:08:02 GMT piersonsmuppet said:

After all attacks have resolved their normal damage. Say you get 3 successful wound rolls followed by two failed saves, the target would take 6 normal damage and all damage would need to be assigned. Then after all normal damage is resolved, you would assign the 3 MWs.

Ok yes, I think I founds a FAQ clearing the situation. And yes, the normal damage for the attack would be resolved first, then the mortal wounds.

*Edit* never mind, I stand corrected. Pierson is right. All the mortal wounds are allocated after all the attacks are done

[grave77digger]

Great thanks

[dkng]

Apr 28, 2022 17:43:21 GMT bigbadbalou said:

Apr 28, 2022 17:08:02 GMT piersonsmuppet said:

After all attacks have resolved their normal damage. Say you get 3 successful wound rolls followed by two failed saves, the target would take 6 normal damage and all damage would need to be assigned. Then after all normal damage is resolved, you would assign the 3 MWs.

Ok yes, I think I founds a FAQ clearing the situation. And yes, the normal damage for the attack would be resolved first, then the mortal wounds.

*Edit* never mind, I stand corrected. Pierson is right. All the mortal wounds are allocated after all the attacks are done

He is ALWAYS right.

[bigbadbalou]

Apr 28, 2022 18:19:22 GMT dkng said:

Apr 28, 2022 17:43:21 GMT bigbadbalou said:

Ok yes, I think I founds a FAQ clearing the situation. And yes, the normal damage for the attack would be resolved first, then the mortal wounds.

*Edit* never mind, I stand corrected. Pierson is right. All the mortal wounds are allocated after all the attacks are done

He is ALWAYS right.

Hahahaha, yes indeed. I do think is he right often and really aware of what is going on with the state of the game.

[Master Chief]

Talking about the reaper, it is strong but I started to prefer the Maw Claws.

Most of the times the Reaper is just a normal Monstrous Bonesword, while the Maw Claws starts by giving you an extra attack and re rolls to wound, so it is helping with the CPs economy as you won't need to use Voracious Appetite on him.

Unless the opponent has various forms of +++ the reaper is outclassed by the claw maws, and anyway on the end game once the Flyrant has 7/8/9 Monstruos Bohesword attacks and re rolls 1s to hit and natively re rolls to wound, it gets kinda terrifying. 

[obsidianaura]

To tag on to the end of this thread, the rules say "Each time an attack is made with this weapon, if that attack successfully wounds the target, the target suffers 1 mortal wound in addition to any other damage." What does it mean by Target? Is it a targeted model or targeted unit. I'm assuming you're targeting the unit as you cant target models, although you can target characters, but they are their own unit.

Say you're in combat with a unit with multiple 3 wound models and successfully cause a wound and do 3 damage killing it outright. The model dies and the mortal wound goes onto the unit and isn't lost right?

[piersonsmuppet]

Reaper is not just more effective vs +++, it generally comes out ahead vs ++ and -1 Dmg as well. The way Reaper works, it is best used as a CP sink to kill hard targets, and is a unique solution to +++ in the codex. Yes Maw-claws works better w/o spending CP, but then the comparison is efficient use of Maw-claws vs inefficient use of Reaper. That’s a bit of a loaded/biased assessment. However, if the goal is to conserve CP use for the rest of the army, then Maw-claws is quite helpful. I will say that offensive CP sinks have been very good in 9E though (Levi HG/Devilgants getting exploding 6’s and shooting twice for example).

[piersonsmuppet]

Apr 29, 2022 13:41:34 GMT obsidianaura said:

Say you're in combat with a unit with multiple 3 wound models and successfully cause a wound and do 3 damage killing it outright. The model dies and the mortal wound goes onto the unit and isn't lost right?

Yes, MWs are not lost when a model dies and continue to the next model in the unit.

[Master Chief]

Apr 29, 2022 13:42:36 GMT piersonsmuppet said:

Reaper is not just more effective vs +++, it generally comes out ahead vs ++ and -1 Dmg as well. The way Reaper works, it is best used as a CP sink to kill hard targets, and is a unique solution to +++ in the codex. Yes Maw-claws works better w/o spending CP, but then the comparison is efficient use of Maw-claws vs inefficient use of Reaper. That’s a bit of a loaded/biased assessment. However, if the goal is to conserve CP use for the rest of the army, then Maw-claws is quite helpful. I will say that offensive CP sinks have been very good in 9E though (Levi HG/Devilgants getting exploding 6’s and shooting twice for example).

You're completely right, I didn't take in consideration the extra usefulness against ++ and the various -1 dmg around.