Swarming masses question

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Attaching the link so everyone has access to the rules:

www.warhammer-community.com/2022/03/18/even-the-smallest-bioforms-are-getting-big-buffs-in-codex-tyranids/


Does the new swarming masses rule allow us to fight if we are outside of engagement range but with in 2.5"?

[killercroc]

I think how it's suppose to work is both bullet points must apply. So, you can attack if in engagement range & you may attack if within 2.5", effectively letting bugs further back and couldn't get within .5" still swing.

[trashcan01]

Yup. As killercroc said - both.
If you are outside of 1'' with the whole unit at the start of the Fight phase you aren't eligible to get chosen to act in the Fight phase.
The whole Endless Swarm is to extend the fight range when already within 1''.

[dkng]

All it really does is to allow Gaunts to fight with 3 ranks instead of 2

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Thanks all! For some reason my brain was reading it as potentially being an or and not an and. Will play it as an and unless a FAQ contradicts this ruling.

[hivemind03]

Mar 31, 2022 15:36:31 GMT killercroc said:

I think how it's suppose to work is both bullet points must apply. So, you can attack if in engagement range & you may attack if within 2.5", effectively letting bugs further back and couldn't get within .5" still swing.

Engagement range is 1" right? So I have to be both within an inch and within 2.5"s? That doesn't make sense.

No matter how I read this rule it doesn't work. I need to go back and comb over the fight rules...

Not that it will ever matter with how my lists are shaping up.

[trashcan01]

Usually the models can fight if:

• are within 1'' of the opponent's model (Engagement range) 
  - AND -
• they are within 1/2'' of another model from their unit that is within 1/2'' of the opponent's model

To maximize the effect of our swarm units we have the "Swarming Masses" rule that has the following:

• They are within Engagement Range of any enemy units.
  - AND -

• They are within 2½" of any enemy units (meaning more models can fight)
  

[dkng]

Mar 31, 2022 17:51:50 GMT hivemind03 said:

Mar 31, 2022 15:36:31 GMT killercroc said:

I think how it's suppose to work is both bullet points must apply. So, you can attack if in engagement range & you may attack if within 2.5", effectively letting bugs further back and couldn't get within .5" still swing.

Engagement range is 1" right? So I have to be both within an inch and within 2.5"s? That doesn't make sense.

No matter how I read this rule it doesn't work. I need to go back and comb over the fight rules...

Not that it will ever matter with how my lists are shaping up.

Models can fight if they are within engagement range - their bases are less than 1” from enemy bases. Normally, if you move your models closer to the enemy so they are less than 1/2” away, models that are within 1/2” from those models can also fight (basically second rank). Swarming Masses means models in the unit can attack if they are within 2,5” from the enemy so basically (as the Horms bases are 1”) that means a third rank can fight.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

It's also going to speed up the fight phase. You don't need to maximize the movement of each model

[hivemind03]

Mar 31, 2022 18:03:00 GMT trashcan01 said:

Usually the models can fight if:

• are within 1'' of the opponent's model (Engagement range) 
  - AND -
• they are within 1/2'' of another model from their unit that is within 1/2'' of the opponent's model

To maximize the effect of our swarm units we have the "Swarming Masses" rule that has the following:

• They are within Engagement Range of any enemy units.
  - AND -

• They are within 2½" of any enemy units (meaning more models can fight)
  

If I am within 1" then I am also within 2.5". No problem.

If I am at 2.49" then I am not within 1", so I can't attack because I do not satisfy both bullet points?

Edit: Feel free to ignore me. I'm just arguing for arguing sake. I know what the intent is here but I'm arguing the rule as written doesn't work or at very least is poorly worded.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

The unit has to be in engagement range.

If the unit is in engagement range, then you check which models can fight. Normally, that's within 1" and models that are within 1" of a unit in 1" (two ranks). We get a special rule that models within 2.5" can fight, so we get 3 ranks.

[hivemind03]

Mar 31, 2022 18:56:05 GMT hivefleetkerrigan said:

The unit has to be in engagement range.

If the unit is in engagement range, then you check which models can fight. Normally, that's within 1" and models that are within 1" of a unit in 1" (two ranks). We get a special rule that models within 2.5" can fight, so we get 3 ranks.

That's what it should say.. but it says "models in a unit". For both bullet points.

[purestrain]

Mar 31, 2022 18:39:40 GMT hivemind03 said:

Mar 31, 2022 18:03:00 GMT trashcan01 said:

Usually the models can fight if:

• are within 1'' of the opponent's model (Engagement range) 
  - AND -
• they are within 1/2'' of another model from their unit that is within 1/2'' of the opponent's model

To maximize the effect of our swarm units we have the "Swarming Masses" rule that has the following:

• They are within Engagement Range of any enemy units.
  - AND -

• They are within 2½" of any enemy units (meaning more models can fight)
  

If I am within 1" then I am also within 2.5". No problem.

If I am at 2.49" then I am not within 1", so I can't attack because I do not satisfy both bullet points?

Edit: Feel free to ignore me. I'm just arguing for arguing sake. I know what the intent is here but I'm arguing the rule as written doesn't work or at very least is poorly worded.

Yeah no, also its blatantly obvious what the intent is, so arguing for arguments sake is just "that guy" behavior 

[hivemind03]

Mar 31, 2022 19:00:56 GMT purestrain said:

Mar 31, 2022 18:39:40 GMT hivemind03 said:

If I am within 1" then I am also within 2.5". No problem.

If I am at 2.49" then I am not within 1", so I can't attack because I do not satisfy both bullet points?

Edit: Feel free to ignore me. I'm just arguing for arguing sake. I know what the intent is here but I'm arguing the rule as written doesn't work or at very least is poorly worded.

Yeah no, also its blatantly obvious what the intent is, so arguing for arguments sake is just "that guy" behavior 

That's not fair. It's a discussion board.

[trashcan01]

Mar 31, 2022 18:39:40 GMT hivemind03 said:

If I am within 1" then I am also within 2.5". No problem.
If I am at 2.49" then I am not within 1", so I can't attack because I do not satisfy both bullet points?

Edit: Feel free to ignore me. I'm just arguing for arguing sake. I know what the intent is here but I'm arguing the rule as written doesn't work or at very least is poorly worded.

I don't think it's worded poorly as it is written for the whole unit. So, as long as the models in the unit are within 1'' and within 2,5'' they can fight.
Out of curiosity, how would you word it?