Core conundrum.

[niiai]

I am gonne be rolling two topics into one here. Witch is not a good idea.

What are good core units to target with our bonuses that targets core? In my listst so far I have only had small units of warriors. But if we want to maxemise it I guess targets are:

- Big blob of warror
- Same of raveners.
- Tervigants.
- Hormogaunts.
- Gargoyles.
- Some sort of carnifex.
- Genestealers.
- Tyrnat guards.
- Venomthropes.

Honorable mention to units that can shoot and charge so you can double tap it. However, I am not feeling it. Swarmlord lists in particular who gives full re-roll probably need to benefit from this.

Also, second topic. Are you gun monsters so much better then space marine tanks? Every one is going gaga for exocrine. But nobody takes space marine tanks. Is it that much better?

Space marines go gaga for dreadnoughts. Are dreadnoughts that much better then our carnifexes? This confuses me. Perhaps space marine bonuses are in blobs and we are precision targeting via synaptic network?

[infornography]

It is always challenging to compare similar units across codecies, especially lately with how complicated each codex has gotten.
There are different bonuses, different weak points that need shoring up, different stratagems that can be employed, and often enough different objectives that are the core target of the faction.

If you just straight compare statlines and points costs between two different factions units one will always seem drastically disadvantaged compared to the other. To get into this you would need to do a very deep dive into both codecies and in the case of space marines, probably each of the supplements as well since Space Marines is more like several different factions than a single one with different hive fleets.

But even within a codex which units are good will often depend heavily on which chapter/hive fleet/etc you are using.
I feel like this question made sense in 5th and 6th edition when interactions were more straightforward, but in 9th there are too many moving parts, too many subtle differences to track to make any sort of logical conclusions.

[bolk]

A good example of what infornography is saying here is the Invictor Warsuit for Marines. For 160 pts you have a forward deploying 10" Carnifex with great shooting in addition to S14 AP-3 D3 melee, which Tyranids players would die for in our old codex, but isn't even used in Marine lists.

[niiai]

My SW run often 2 or now 3 Redemtor Dreadnoughts babysitting with some form of re-roll 1 to hit from core. That is because the overloaded macro plasma is one of the few sources of D3 on a shooting profile with good range that SM and SW get. (Other sources are hellblasters and meltaguns. Melta guns need delivery.) The D3 need overload so that needs re roll one to not get mortal wounds. Sources for re-roll one are all auras. (Wisdom of the ancient stratagem, Bjørn or wolf lord auras.)

So it is not an apple to apple comparison.

Since the SM re rolls come in aura small groups is no problem. They all get it. Use the Swarmlord to give one carnifex full re-roll is not as good. We need at least one big blob to get milage out of it. (Raveners who can advance, shoot and charge with psykick power comes to mind.)

If space Marines had a tank with the exochrine stats and gun would they play that? Is it the SM tanks are that bad or that SM are much more dependent on core compared to us? (I am asuming here that you the reading consider the exochrine good.)

[piersonsmuppet]

Don't forget Zoanthropes and Pyrovores are CORE for SL's Obj Sec buff, they are fantastic targets for it. Pyrovores are also very good targets for a Tyranid Prime's rr1's to-wound.

The Exocrine has stratagem, AP, and Imperative support. The tanks have a single HQ. The big thing is access to Invuls though; if a 10W+ model doesn't have invuls or -1Dmg, the models isn't even looked at for competitive play.

Mar 30, 2022 14:36:10 GMT bolk said:

A good example of what infornography is saying here is the Invictor Warsuit for Marines. For 160 pts you have a forward deploying 10" Carnifex with great shooting in addition to S14 AP-3 D3 melee, which Tyranids players would die for in our old codex, but isn't even used in Marine lists.

We would've only taken that in Crusher, once again for the Invul AND -1Dmg. Before CS, I think Nid players would have ignored it just as much as SM players.


Edit: I have a SL list I'm looking to test which runs 3x5 Warriors, 2-3x Fex HVC/CS, and 4x TG w/ BC. The goal is to have a Tyrant giving rr1's and +1 to-hit to one unit and SL giving full rr's to a 2nd unit. A variety of melee/shooting units capable of receiving those buffs are a MUST.

[bolk]

Mar 30, 2022 15:05:19 GMT piersonsmuppet said:

Don't forget Zoanthropes and Pyrovores are CORE for SL's Obj Sec buff, they are fantastic targets for it. Pyrovores are also very good targets for a Tyranid Prime's rr1's to-wound.

The Exocrine has stratagem, AP, and Imperative support. The tanks have a single HQ. The big thing is access to Invuls though; if a 10W+ model doesn't have invuls or -1Dmg, the models isn't even looked at for competitive play.

Mar 30, 2022 14:36:10 GMT bolk said:

A good example of what infornography is saying here is the Invictor Warsuit for Marines. For 160 pts you have a forward deploying 10" Carnifex with great shooting in addition to S14 AP-3 D3 melee, which Tyranids players would die for in our old codex, but isn't even used in Marine lists.

We would've only taken that in Crusher, once again for the Invul AND -1Dmg. Before CS, I think Nid players would have ignored it just as much as SM players.


Edit: I have a SL list I'm looking to test which runs 3x5 Warriors, 2-3x Fex HVC/CS, and 4x TG w/ BC. The goal is to have a Tyrant giving rr1's and +1 to-hit to one unit and SL giving full rr's to a 2nd unit. A variety of melee/shooting units capable of receiving those buffs are a MUST.

Well, yes, but we didn't really consider Carnifexes at all pre-CS did we?

[piersonsmuppet]

I mean, we didn't consider most monsters that did not have a built-in Invul prior to Crusher. Exo's and Barbed only appeared because they could be given Invuls w/ APs and had stratagem/fleet support.

[piersonsmuppet]

Mar 30, 2022 14:50:25 GMT niiai said:

My SW run often 2 or now 3 Redemtor Dreadnoughts babysitting with some form of re-roll 1 to hit from core. That is because the overloaded macro plasma is one of the few sources of D3 on a shooting profile with good range that SM and SW get. (Other sources are hellblasters and meltaguns. Melta guns need delivery.) The D3 need overload so that needs re roll one to not get mortal wounds. Sources for re-roll one are all auras. (Wisdom of the ancient stratagem, Bjørn or wolf lord auras.)

So it is not an apple to apple comparison.

Since the SM re rolls come in aura small groups is no problem. They all get it. Use the Swarmlord to give one carnifex full re-roll is not as good. We need at least one big blob to get milage out of it. (Raveners who can advance, shoot and charge with psykick power comes to mind.)

If space Marines had a tank with the exochrine stats and gun would they play that? Is it the SM tanks are that bad or that SM are much more dependent on core compared to us? (I am asuming here that you the reading consider the exochrine good.)

SM are more dependant on CORE to maximize their support abilities. They have a lot more stratagems and buff rules locked behind CORE, and several of those are AURAs granting no limit to how much of the army can benefit. All Tyranid CORE buffs are single target and probably for good reason; if we were getting rr1's auras, HVC Carnifex spam would be the bell of the ball.

I think the SM tanks would need CORE to realistically be playable, it's honestly the only reason Redemptors really see play. Take off CORE, and Venerable's with MMs would fill the gap.

[trashcan01]

What is great about Tyranids, is that the <CORE> buffs can be moved around depending on the situation.
As our "new" Codex rewards diverse list, in most cases you will only have one <CORE> buff per Synapse. You really want to make it count.

In most cases, all of my CORE buffs went into the big Warrior Blob. With their range and melee potential, +1 hit, re-roll 1 to hit and to wound, they pretty much decimate anything they (split)shoot at.

Surprisingly enough, my most "pinged around" Synapse Link was the one from Neurothrope. I gave him the 2xSynaptic Link warlord trait and I am so happy that I did. The usual ping was Neuro/Zhoantrope to make sure to dish out NeuroParasite/2xSmites with high probability of D6. But, whenever I needed an secure Onslaught or Catalyst it would go on my Hive Tyrant.

[berserkguts]

In my opinion, I suggest take Malanthrope rather than venoms. Cuz this unit also has -1 hit aura ability and could take the WL trait which can increase 3' to its aura ability. Then it can move anywhere with your mosters/infantries and can not be target by any enemy. Therefore it is much more flexible and tougher than venoms. Even though it doesn't get HIVE TENDRIL Keyword but I believe it will in the future FAQ just like custodes.

[N.I.B.]

I don't think Malanthrope cuts above Venomthropes anymore. Its +45 points, competes for a WL trait that will set you back -1CP unless you want to have half the range of the Venomthropes' aura. Also Venomthropes are actually good in combat now, especially as a support tech to tip the scales. Malanthrope lacks both Toxic Miasma and Foul Spores.

HIVE TENDRIL puts Venomthropes waaay ahead. With transnid and Warp Shielding and all that good stuff it's not even necessarily a bad thing that they can be targeted for shooting, forcing your opponent into bad decisions.

[dkng]

Mar 31, 2022 5:50:09 GMT trashcan01 said:

What is great about Tyranids, is that the <CORE> buffs can be moved around depending on the situation.
As our "new" Codex rewards diverse list, in most cases you will only have one <CORE> buff per Synapse. You really want to make it count.

In most cases, all of my CORE buffs went into the big Warrior Blob. With their range and melee potential, +1 hit, re-roll 1 to hit and to wound, they pretty much decimate anything they (split)shoot at.

Surprisingly enough, my most "pinged around" Synapse Link was the one from Neurothrope. I gave him the 2xSynaptic Link warlord trait and I am so happy that I did. The usual ping was Neuro/Zhoantrope to make sure to dish out NeuroParasite/2xSmites with high probability of D6. But, whenever I needed an secure Onslaught or Catalyst it would go on my Hive Tyrant.

Synaptic Tendrils WT is the best one around hands down. The real pain is that you can get it only once Its absolutely fantastic on basically any HQ but shines the most on Tyrants and Neuros.

[berserkguts]

Mar 31, 2022 6:59:19 GMT N.I.B. said:

I don't think Malanthrope cuts above Venomthropes anymore. Its +45 points, competes for a WL trait that will set you back -1CP unless you want to have half the range of the Venomthropes' aura. Also Venomthropes are actually good in combat now, especially as a support tech to tip the scales. Malanthrope lacks both Toxic Miasma and Foul Spores.

HIVE TENDRIL puts Venomthropes waaay ahead. With transnid and Warp Shielding and all that good stuff it's not even necessarily a bad thing that they can be targeted for shooting, forcing your opponent into bad decisions.

Actually Malanthrope is more expensive and worse in combat than venomthropes but it can move 5' and its -1 hit aura ability is 6'(with WL trait it will be 9'). Venomthropes are only 12' and can not move. Transnid and warp shielding could buff it too! AAAAnd If u are lucky enough in combat with your monster(I think u can finish this with your strong monsters) then it can get reroll wound roll 1 aura ability! How juicy it is.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Venoms can move and have their -1 to hit aura. For their 12" strat, they have to remain stationary however.

[niiai]

Also venomthropes move 8. Wit u is insane. They fight last randomly screw people up also. I am really high on the venom thropes train. And they are core. Perhaps team up with Swarmlord for re-rolling hits and 2+ to wound later on.