Raveners question and options

[N.I.B.]

Can someone explain how they work now; 5 attacks base with AP-2 Ravener claws, then you roll 2 extra attacks at AP-1, one for each single Scyting talon?
And if I switch the Scything talons for Rending claws (for free Hell yes!), I'm down to 5 attacks but can make all of them with rending claws?

I notice that Raveners didn't get the Adrenal glands option this time either. Probably for no other reason GW chose to not include them on their sprues 20 years ago. Salty.

I'm pondering what our best harass options are. Do you see any play in Raveners? 270 pts for a full unit, Deathspitters for free, Death from Below to pressure backlines, spray 27 Deathspitter shots and maybe pop Encircle the Prey if you fail the charge and expect heat. With Ld 5 they need synapse around, 180pts for a synapse'd Harpy feels like a gamble, not sure Harpy survives until turn 2.
Harpy is a nice offensive unit but can't take objectives.
Parasite seem so fragile.
Synaptic Mawloc is a cheaper option. I also like zimko's combo with Mawloc and Deathleaper.

[shadowfinder]

Why is the Parasite fragile?

For 80 points take Parasite. cheaper than harpy and more of a chance to use its unique rules.

Seams better than just one source from the other options.

[zimko]

I'm going to try a Harpy out tonight. Their new bombing rule looks pretty good, especially against vehicle units like Voidreavers (roll 10 dice as long as the unit has 2 vehicles, 4+ does mortal) that are going to be hiding in the back. Double HVC is also nice for hunting artillery. Eldar weapons platforms are becoming more popular and they'd be a prime target for a Harpy. We no longer have Hive Guard to kill such units that hide out of LOS so I think a Harpy can fill that niche while also scoring Engage. Bonus points for having a Mawloc with synapse appear nearby on turn 2 to give both of them a 4++ from the Zoan synaptive imperative.


I'm dropping the Exocrine to take the Harpy. The Exocrine hasn't been performing that well for me. I think the Harpy can do better for offense.

[vortexdr]

Mar 22, 2022 16:02:58 GMT shadowfinder said:

Why is the Parasite fragile?

For 80 points take Parasite. cheaper than harpy and more of a chance to use its unique rules.

Seams better than just one source from the other options.

Um t5, w6  4+ is fragile in this meta...No invulns, no nothing sort of means if someone looks at him the wrong way he is dead.

All he got is -1 to hit and no rerolls but id agree he is fragile. Also i don't think the unique rules are all that great. I for sure rather have a harpy at a measly 80 points more. Hell that's not even a contest comparing a Harpy to the parasite...

[piersonsmuppet]

If the Harpy is used to harass, then the lack of holding Objs shouldn't matter much. I want to try out 2 for a good HVC platform and T2+ harassment (losing first just means I pop Zoan imperative and use the transhuman strat if not Levi), and have been looking at Monster Obj Sec fleets mainly. However, I think old 7E Kraken-style flying circus might be a thing again while using the Hunt Fallback & Shoot with the Tyrant Fallback & Charge imperative. 2 Harpys and 2-3 Flyrants moving where they want and shooting/charging what they want every turn T2-T3+ seems like a headache to deal with on top of the rest of the army doing it as well. The Fallback & shoot/charge plan also looks very good for Harpies in that they will constantly trigger the MW bombs as well. Throw in Horned charges from Flyrants every turn and Encircle the Prey to do a true hit/run, I think it has some legs.

Raveners... I think they could be good with SL. A block of 9 isn't easy to fit in the back lines most times for me, and a smaller unit sounds like it will annoy slightly then not do terribly much. DL w/ Obj Sec seems like the best backfield harasser for us atm. Very killy, can't just point guns back to deal with it, steals Objs and kills actions/strats.

[N.I.B.]

Can someone explain how they work now; 5 attacks base with AP-2 Ravener claws, then you roll 2 extra attacks at AP-1, one for each single Scyting talon?
And if I switch the Scything talons for Rending claws, I'm down to 5 attacks but can make all of them with rending claws?

[piersonsmuppet]

Mar 22, 2022 17:43:43 GMT N.I.B. said:

Can someone explain how they work now; 5 attacks base with AP-2 Ravener claws, then you roll 2 extra attacks at AP-1, one for each single Scyting talon?
And if I switch the Scything talons for Rending claws, I'm down to 5 attacks but can make all of them with rending claws?

Correct.

[parzaius]

A mathhammer note about ravener gear: The "no gun" option should've been a full reroll, if you want to balance it against having a gun. And Devourer should be higher than 5 shots to balance it against the deathspitter. As-is, there's only one load out.

Let's take a Squad of 3 Raveners

Guns:
Deathspitter: GEQ: 4D. MEQ: 2.7 D
Devourer: GEQ: 4.4D. MEQ: 1.6 D
Spinefists: GEQ: 2.2D. MEQ: 1.3 D

Conclusion: Even against mooks, Deathspitters are nearly equivalent. Never take Devourers.
---------------------------

Scything + gun:
- GEQ: claws: 3x5= 15A at 3+ = 10 5S vs 3T = 6.7W w/ -2ap = 6.7 D
scything: 3x2= 6A at 3+ = 4 5S vs 3T = 2.7W w/ -1ap = 2.2 D
6.7 D + 2.2 + 4 D = 12.9 damage into mooks
- MEQ: claws: 3x5= 15A at 3+ = 10 5S vs 4T = 6.7W w/ -2ap = 4.4 D
scything: 3x2= 6A at 3+ = 4 5S vs 4T = 2.7W w/ -1ap = 1.3 D
4.4 D + 1.3 D + 2.7 D = 8.4 damage into marines

Versus:

Rending + gun:
- GEQ: rending: 3x5= 15A at 3+ = 10 6S vs 3T = 8.3W w/ -4ap = 8.3 D
8.3 D + 4 D = 12.3 damage into mooks
- MEQ: rending: 3x5= 15A at 3+ = 10 6S vs 4T = 6.7W w/ -4ap = 6.7 D
6.7 D + 2.7 D = 9.4 damage into marines

Conclusion: if you're taking a gun, just stick with rending claws, even against mooks, as the difference is negligible.
-----------------------------------------

Scything w/o gun:
- GEQ: claws: 3x5= 15A at 3+ = 10 + 1.7 rerolls = 11.7A at 5S vs 3T = 7.8W w/ -2ap = 7.8 D
scything: 3x2= 6A at 3+ = 4 + 0.7 rerolls = 4.7A 5S vs 3T = 3.1W w/ -1ap = 2.6 D
7.8 D + 2.6 D = 10.4 damage into mooks
- MEQ: claws: 3x5= 15A at 3+ = 10 + 1.7 rerolls = 11.7A at 5S vs 4T = 7.8W w/ -2ap = 5.2 D
scything: 3x2= 6A at 3+ = 4 + 0.7 rerolls = 4.7A 5S vs 4T = 3.1 w/ -1ap = 2.1 D
5.2 D + 2.1 D = 7.3 damage into marines

Versus:

Rending w/o gun:
- GEQ: rending: 3x5= 15A at 3+ = 10 + 1.7 rerolls = 11.7A at 6S vs 3T = 9.7W w/ -4ap = 9.7 D
9.7 damage into mooks
- MEQ: rending: 3x5= 15A at 3+ = 10 + 1.7 rerolls = 11.7A at 6S vs 4T = 7.8W w/ -4ap = 7.8 D
7.8 damage into marines

Conclusion: Not taking a gun to get "reroll 1" reduces your damage output in every category on the first turn. If you are stuck in for a second round, not having the gun is a minor increase in damage (but how often do you actually find your units stuck in the thick of it for a protracted period, with neither side knocking out the other super quickly?)
-------------

Rending w/guns:
vs Guard: 12.3 vs Marines: 9.4
Rending w/o guns
vs Guard: 9.7 vs Marines: 7.8


tl;dr - Because there's no cost difference between all gear options, the correct loadout in basically every instance of use is:
Deathspitter + Rending Claws.

[niiai]

Raveners with devourers seem rather fun in a gogron list. But there is perhaps not enough 4< to justefy it?

[parzaius]

Mar 22, 2022 19:26:06 GMT niiai said:

Raveners with devourers seem rather fun in a gogron list. But there is perhaps not enough 4< to justefy it?

The only thing Gorgon is going to help you with is T5+. And even then, the lack of AP on Devourers is going to negate the +1 to wound you would otherwise get. The only time you're going to get anything from it would be facing Orks, maybe, with their T5 and crummy save.

Devourers are a trap.

[N.I.B.]

Mar 22, 2022 19:09:15 GMT parzaius said:

A mathhammer note about ravener gear:
tl;dr - Because there's no cost difference between all gear options, the correct loadout in basically every instance of use is:
Deathspitter + Rending Claws.

Did you do the math for ScyTals/Ravener Claws vs Rending Claws?

[parzaius]

Mar 25, 2022 7:03:17 GMT N.I.B. said:

Mar 22, 2022 19:09:15 GMT parzaius said:

A mathhammer note about ravener gear:
tl;dr - Because there's no cost difference between all gear options, the correct loadout in basically every instance of use is:
Deathspitter + Rending Claws.

Did you do the math for ScyTals/Ravener Claws vs Rending Claws?

Yes. It's all in there. But here's the tl;dr version-

Without a gun:

Scything Talons + Ravener Claws-
GEQ 10.4
MEQ 7.3

Rending Claws-
GEQ 9.7
MEQ 7.8

With a Deathspitter:

Scything Talons + Ravener Claws-
GEQ 12.9
MEQ 8.4

Rending Claws-
GEQ 12.4
MEQ 9.4

Not taking a gun loses you around 20% damage (because you're only rerolling 1). Always take a gun (specifically, the Deathspitter, because the Devourer is pretty bad).

Scything Talons has an extremely small advantage over Rending Claws when you're fighting T3, 5+ units, but it is not enough of one to make up for the better T4, 3+ performance drop off.

Obviously, these numbers are all based off of default Raveners. If you've got external buffs/strats that, say, give the unit exploding 6s or something, it'll skew the numbers somewhat.

[piersonsmuppet]

That's right... Ravener Guns don't replace melee options. I wholeheartedly agree now, rr1's is not worth the loss in Free shooting especially since you can just hit them with Tyrant/SL RR's if needed. I don't really understand how DS are making it through to the final cut as free options...

[jesses]

Mar 22, 2022 17:43:43 GMT N.I.B. said:

Can someone explain how they work now; 5 attacks base with AP-2 Ravener claws, then you roll 2 extra attacks at AP-1, one for each single Scyting talon?

Yes, correct.

Mar 22, 2022 17:43:43 GMT N.I.B. said:

And if I switch the Scything talons for Rending claws, I'm down to 5 attacks but can make all of them with rending claws?

Yes, but I am 95% sure this is yet another typo from before they made them "Ravener claws". Right now RAW you can outfit your Rav's with 4x RC arms (not included in the kit) and there is no way to run full talons (which IS included in the kit). My bet is that after an FAQ the default loadout will be 4 talons for a whopping 9 attacks each, or 5+2 with the Ravener claws.

[gigasnail]

while you *can* equip and run them with X4 RC, doesn't it literally do nothing?