Initial Impressions of 9th Codex

[kazetanade]

Can I just re-direct people's thinking? Most of the units in question that got "nerfed" are actually brought in line to an internal balance of unit roles and lore representation. Hive Guard have been and are always supposed to be just that - defenders of the Hive constructs. They've got a new rule that lets them count as 3x models each (making the unit count as an 18 model at full) makes them really good at holding home base objectives even as they lose guys (the only issue I see is them not having CORE, hence not having access to an Ob Sec ability to retain control of home base).

The fact that their gun got turned into an elite killer meant to take out aggressive elements I think is fine. HG being the most efficient shooting in the codex barr none is bad internal balance design - each having a specific niche is good design. In this case, they're the "I'm going to hold central and bombard anything that gets near me" unit, and they get to ignore all hit modifiers if Synapse has eyes on them.

Likewise, Genestealers now forward deploying is a big niche we'd lost in 8th ed; and I'm good for it. They're supposed to lurk and skulk ahead of the Hive in the first place, are more durable than before for "holding" or "threatening" terrain via Infestation nodes, and can do respectable damage to most things they manage to get to. At the end of the day, Tyranids are a generalist army with a lean towards biting and clawing faces off, with a variety of tools at their disposal in the form of tyranid bioforms rather than magical sparklies.

I'd like to point out that what GW has done is not dictate what they want you to -buy-. They've dictated how they want you to play Tyranids. That's called design philosophy. As far as I can see, -nothing- is unplayable or bad, and are within a few points worth of changes to being decently good (except for Rippers - I dont know what happened there).

For sure, the variety and internal balance is better than the GSC codex by far, and people already consider the GSC codex as pretty damn good at internal balance.

[jackshrapnel]

Well to be fair, anyone who didn't think Tyrants weren't going to one per detachment was kidding themselves. Also I cannot think of any other 9th edition army that got to keep options for a unit not in the models' box, so that isn't a surprise either, and is very consistent with the direct GW has taken with all armies. (see harlies for a recent example)

I for one am very excited for the codex. It has a great many options that I want to try out for certain. Almost everything is an improvement, however if someone was really into using hive guard (in their current iteration), rippers, swarmy double move, genestealers and devilgants I can see some upset for certain. (I have a big squad of devilgants sitting there that I likely won't really have a use for - at least my stealers are still really good in GSC)

So much like most codexes that have been released, there's going to be some winners and some losers, but that doesn't overshadow the fact this is a BIG improvement over the previous dex. If crusher stampede remains legal (haven't seen anything that says it's not) this makes us even stronger, as everything barring hive guard + swarmlord move in CS has improved significantly.

A walking tyrant being actually useful now is great. The flyrant is still there as an option, and still good, but there's a reason to take a walkrant now - really like this. Swarmlord isn't just there for the double move something to slam into combat. Lictors being competent in melee. Warriors being FINALLY good. A Haruspex who doesn't run in with giant pillows on his arms. reliable non-variable shot/damage shooting. Blanket upgrades to weapon skill for all our combat bugs. Lower CP expenditures as has been mentioned (I'm super happy my malceptor isn't a 2 CP/turn sink anymore). Zoans! There's just a lot to love, and has options to play models that I'd never considered before. I was so used to swarmy+flyrants+devilgants+stealers+hiveguard as my base for every army. I can do other stuff now (and I can still include those units if I want, but they're not mandatory now)

I'm positive... but understand there are units that got hit. Hive guard nerf needed to happen though. that was just oppressive and all I got from my playgroup by double-shooting hive guard was eye rolls and "this is why I hate playing against nids"... even if the rest of the army was lackluster (CS aside of course).

[Aux]

I have a game tomorrow - any reason to run Genestealers at all?

I think I'll be trying out Carnifexs + 50+ Hormagaunts + Walking Tyrant with guns + Zoans in a test game with the leaked rules

[nintendofilo]

Mar 18, 2022 19:30:08 GMT Aux said:

I have a game tomorrow - any reason to run Genestealers at all?

I think I'll be trying out Carnifexs + 50+ Hormagaunts + Walking Tyrant with guns + Zoans in a test game with the leaked rules

The same reason I like using infiltrators with space marines, early objective grabbing and mid board pressure. Just take advante of their deployment rule to put them behind obscuring terrain if possible. 

[Aux]

Mar 18, 2022 19:32:26 GMT nintendofilo said:

Mar 18, 2022 19:30:08 GMT Aux said:

I have a game tomorrow - any reason to run Genestealers at all?

I think I'll be trying out Carnifexs + 50+ Hormagaunts + Walking Tyrant with guns + Zoans in a test game with the leaked rules

The same reason I like using infiltrators with space marines, early objective grabbing and mid board pressure. Just take advante of their deployment rule to put them behind obscuring terrain if possible. 

We're playing on my terrain which is full of infantry LOS blockers - they do far better on my terrain than at stores lol

[hivefleetkerrigan]

I think for early engage or actions or early pressure, genestealers can be a good tool. I'm going to try some out but don't think I'll use them every game.

[bolk]

Mar 18, 2022 19:34:00 GMT Aux said:

Mar 18, 2022 19:32:26 GMT nintendofilo said:

The same reason I like using infiltrators with space marines, early objective grabbing and mid board pressure. Just take advante of their deployment rule to put them behind obscuring terrain if possible. 

We're playing on my terrain which is full of infantry LOS blockers - they do far better on my terrain than at stores lol

With good terrain, they're definitely worth trying out.
Gonna try them as well, just seeing Screamer Killers and Raveners are faster than Genestealers, and not performing worse, makes my head spin.

[yoritomo]

I think there's a spot for them with the new spore planting objective. 5 or 6 stealers hidden behind cover can get you 4 victory points on turn two and potentially more on later turns if your opponent doesn't deal with them.

There's also unlocking an extra HQ slot for a broodlord if you need him.

[infornography]

The units I feel took the biggest hits, for the most part, could still have a battlefield role if not for their substantially increased points costs.

Genestealers being advance position beatsticks definitely could have a role, but they cost too much for how fragile they still are and on many boards, pushing them out ahead just leaves them dangling in the breeze waiting for some bolters to aim their direction. If they were cheaper the risk of bad terrain invalidating this tactic wouldn't be so bad, but at their current cost? I think unless you control the terrain options (your table, not a game store or tourney's table) they are just not going to be worth it. GW could fix this with a modest points drop on them in an FAQ.

Devilgaunts are adequate T3 hunters without any synergies and with some of the tricks in the codex, can be otherwise decent again if not for their points cost. Making their weapon statline so bad in exchange for one extra shot is just bizarre, charging an extra point on top of that is what really kills them. If GW drops the cost of devourers on gants to 0 and drops gants by 1 I think we would see a lot of strategies that make use of them. As things stand though, Gants are overcosted by 1 and devourers have no business costing more so while FB gants might still see some table time with strategies that are built around them, devilgaunts are just too expensive unless you REALLY are dedicated to making them work at the cost of overall list efficiency.

I have not said Impaler Guard are useless, just that the combination of their nerfs and cost increase take them solidly out of competitive play. I absolutely see a role for them if they were substantially cheaper than they were, but instead they are substantially more expensive. I agree that recalibrating them to elite hunters that can hold backfield objectives better fits their lore, but they cost WAY WAAAAAY too much for that and really need the ability to get obsec somehow. Ideally CORE. These guys COULD be fixed with an FAQ but it would have to be a HUGE points drop and a note giving them CORE. I don't see this as likely.

Finally Rippers. I seriously do NOT see the role rippers can play now. Even if they were cheap as sticks, what do they bring to the table now? And instead of getting cheap they got atrociously expensive! Please explain to me what you see them bringing to the codex now. I really do not see an FAQ fixing these guys. They need a bottom up overhaul and GW is not prone to doing that in FAQs.

I have not seen people saying this codex is weak or terrible. I see them lamenting the units that were left behind. If GW rebalanced them for a different role, that would be one thing. These four are currently not good for their new roles either. Two can be fixed with minor points adjustments, one major points adjustment and a keyword. The fourth, probably just will not see any significant play with this codex.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

The only uses I see for rippers are holding an objective while staying out of line of sight and for engage on all fronts. I think they're costed too much for those roles, however.

[piersonsmuppet]

Mar 19, 2022 14:27:47 GMT infornography said:

I have not said Impaler Guard are useless, just that the combination of their nerfs and cost increase take them solidly out of competitive play. I absolutely see a role for them if they were substantially cheaper than they were, but instead they are substantially more expensive. I agree that recalibrating them to elite hunters that can hold backfield objectives better fits their lore, but they cost WAY WAAAAAY too much for that and really need the ability to get obsec somehow. Ideally CORE. These guys COULD be fixed with an FAQ but it would have to be a HUGE points drop and a note giving them CORE. I don't see this as likely.

Honestly, they just need CORE to be decent picks in Levi, Kronos, and maybe Gorgon. Pts drop would be nice, but I think I’m okay with 60 ppm and gaining CORE. They do need a pretty substantial pts drop w/o CORE though.

[acehilator]

Being Elite Hunters while holding backfield is not going to play out with 24" range. HG got much, much worse while lots of interesting options got much better.

I am getting new models for a new paintscheme soon (gotta hop on that Coconut crab train while it's still going), concepts I am most interested in:

1. T8 Overload. Double HT on foot, Neurotrophe, minimum Warriors, 4x Tyrannofex and/or Exocrines, Maleceptor, Haruspex. Min. squad of Zoans to unlock the Imperative. Fill up with whatever (probably more Zoans and Warriors).
2. Levi Transnid Synapse party. Double winged HT, Neurotrophe, Trygon Prime, tons of Warriors and Zoans. Round out with whatever.

[dkng]

Mar 19, 2022 15:53:09 GMT acehilator said:

Being Elite Hunters while holding backfield is not going to play out with 24" range. HG got much, much worse while lots of interesting options got much better.

I am getting new models for a new paintscheme soon (gotta hop on that Coconut crab train while it's still going), concepts I am most interested in:

1. T8 Overload. Double HT on foot, Neurotrophe, minimum Warriors, 4x Tyrannofex and/or Exocrines, Maleceptor, Haruspex. Min. squad of Zoans to unlock the Imperative. Fill up with whatever (probably more Zoans and Warriors).
2. Levi Transnid Synapse party. Double winged HT, Neurotrophe, Trygon Prime, tons of Warriors and Zoans. Round out with whatever.

Double HT only with a second detachment I’m afraid.

And... I may be dumb but is Levi trans-tricks really useful? 1-3 for monsters can be useful sometimes with all those S14 weapons around but 1-2 for others seems a bit useless.

[purestrain]

Meh, who cares about Hive guard, if they're your lynch pin unit you were using a crutch anyhow.

Now a neurothrope with Synaptic tendrils to grant warp siphon to two Maleceptors, while having psychic ritual as one of your secondary's seems very very good to me and a smart way to dish damage, deny overwatch and gain VP at the same time.

Double screamer killer for 22 S7 ap-3 3d attacks at something for pretty cheap seems good, then throw gants and bats at things and ruin their day.


Edit: Cannot Psychic ritual with Male because its not a character... sad face

[piersonsmuppet]

Mar 19, 2022 15:53:09 GMT acehilator said:

Being Elite Hunters while holding backfield is not going to play out with 24" range. HG got much, much worse while lots of interesting options got much better.

24” is enough to reach center/midfield objectives from the backfield. They just will not be able to shoot off units from the opponent’s deployment objective, which is fine since we have other tools to deal with that if desired.